Evidence of meeting #55 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I call the meeting back to order. We're going to get back for one more hour and two rounds of questioning.
Without further ado, we are going to begin the first round of questions. Mr. Lake will have the honour of asking the first questions.
Mr. Lake, the floor is yours for six minutes.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
I'm going to follow up on the same line of questioning that I was asking before. It's important to folks in my constituency to understand whether the rules that apply to what they worked so hard to produce apply to products coming from outside of Canada.
This is a simple question. Is oil coming from outside Canada—from countries like Saudi Arabia, Nigeria and Russia—subject to the same standards and the same regulations around reporting and around anything? Are regulations on upstream and downstream emissions for oil coming from Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland and Labrador the same for oil coming into Canada?
12:10 p.m.
Chris Forbes Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
I'm not an expert in this area, so I would have to get back to you on what the specific rules are that are applied to oil and gas imported from other jurisdictions. The minister talked about international reporting requirements. There would be some, but as to what the specific reporting requirements are for imports of oil and gas, we would have to get back to you on that.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
Is there anybody at the table who would have any idea what the regulations would be for oil once it arrives in Canada from other countries?
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
Once it arrives in the country, obviously, there would be rules around transportation, storage, distribution and regulations. Some would be federal and some would be provincial. There would be a long list.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
Oil coming from Canada and moving around Canada—in a 60-second answer, if someone can give it—is subject to what rules around the before and after, the upstream and downstream part?
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
That's a big question. I think it would take more than 60 seconds to give you a good answer, but I would say there are going to be things like transportation and storage regulations. How does it move? Whether it's by pipeline, by rail or whatever, there will be different rules, depending on that and different regulatory bodies.
Storage would be another example, I think.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
There would be rules around before it's in the pipeline in the first place, though.
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
There would be regulatory...there are rules. Some of it comes to the permitting process and conditions of operation.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
How it's produced, there would be within Canada...anything that is permitted.
Is that fair, Terry?
March 27th, 2023 / 12:10 p.m.
Terence Hubbard President, Impact Assessment Agency of Canada
Yes. My understanding is that there would be similar rules—whether the oil is produced in Canada or imported from other nations—for how that oil is used and manoeuvred around the country.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
As we consider oil moving from one place in our country to another, we have to consider where that oil came from and what the emissions footprint was before it got into the pipeline in the first place—its upstream and downstream emissions. Is that right?
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I'm sorry to intervene here, and I won't take away from your time, Mr. Lake.
Aren't there negotiations or discussions globally about imposing someday—it's not in the offing, but someday—special tariffs on products coming into countries, based on whether they incorporate a price on carbon in the source country?
This is way off in the future. That might be what you're touching on. I'm not sure.
Anyway, keep going. I didn't take any time away from you.
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
Can you repeat your last question?
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
As long as it doesn't go against my time.
For oil that's in the pipeline moving around our country, we have regulations to determine whether we can even build pipelines in terms of what the upstream and downstream impact of that oil and gas is. I just need a yes or no answer: We have regulations in that regard. Is that right?
12:10 p.m.
President, Impact Assessment Agency of Canada
We have requirements for new projects to look at both upstream emissions as well as direct emissions associated with facilities. We don't look at downstream emissions once oil leaves our borders.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
Right.
When oil is coming into our country and presumably gets into a pipeline or gets moved within our country, do we have regulations that look at the upstream impact before it gets to our border in the first place? In other words, do we look at where that oil came from in Nigeria, Saudi Arabia or Russia and what the emissions footprint was of that oil, similar to what we would do for oil coming from Alberta?
12:10 p.m.
President, Impact Assessment Agency of Canada
If we were looking at a new facility being proposed in the country that would handle petroleum, we would look at those upstream emissions. We currently do not have any facilities that we're looking at to handle imported petroleum.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
We've made it very difficult to build anything that actually transports oil in any direction in this country. The point I'm try to make is that right now there's an advantage given to oil coming from Saudi Arabia and Nigeria in terms of getting to some places in Canada versus oil coming from Alberta, because they're treated under different regimes. The regulatory impact is different. The burden is more on oil coming from Alberta than it is on oil coming from Nigeria, or a refined oil product coming from Russia in the last year, in 2021. It's a statement I believe no one is disagreeing with me on at the table.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
We're out of time now. I gave you an extra minute. No, I'm sorry, you have another 30 seconds.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
I will give 30 seconds to someone who can articulate what regulation at all, if any, is in place on oil coming from Saudi Arabia, Nigeria or Russia before it gets to Canada to determine whether it should even be allowed in our country or not.
12:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of the Environment
None of us has that answer for you, in part because we don't have the details of all the rules that those countries would have in place around regulating projects, etc., because that's effectively what we would have to know to answer that question. I think the answer is we do not have that information.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
The words I was looking for before were “border tariff”.
We have Mr. Turnbull for six minutes.