Evidence of meeting #59 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was imperial.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you very much.
We're starting the third round of questions, and Mr. Lake is going to start the discussion.
Mr. Lake, you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.
Mr. Pushor, did you have a chance to listen to the review of the testimony from the previous meeting of ENVI?
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
Was there anything said that struck you particularly as being incorrect?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Energy Regulator
If you've had an opportunity to visit a community like Fort Chipewyan, one of the beauties of the winter road is that you have an opportunity to drive through the delta. It's a pretty remarkable part of the world. It's easy to understand the passion of community members who live in a rich and beautiful part of the world. Notwithstanding whether something is 100% accurate or based on some scientific test or not, there's no doubt at all that the concerns in the community are real. We need to do everything in our power to allay those concerns.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
What about Imperial Oil's testimony the other day? Was there anything that particularly stood out to you as being incorrect or that maybe required clarification?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Energy Regulator
You've led me right to the place where I absolutely have to say that it's all subject to the investigation. It would definitely be inappropriate for me to speculate on any potential wrongdoing or inappropriate behaviour on Imperial's behalf. Looking for those things is a fundamental part of our investigation.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
Has there been anything that you would have recognized, or particularly considered incorrect, with regard to anything that anybody said about the AER?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Energy Regulator
No. We're public servants. People are welcome to offer their opinions on our work. We will listen very carefully and diligently. We'll take every opportunity we can find to improve our processes and do a better job.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
In recent years, one of the things in many different issues that we could probably reflect on when there's a lot of strong opinion would be....
I've noticed that experts come before committees and aren't necessarily clear on what they know and don't know. At this point in time, today, what do we know about the situation at Kearl? What would you say we still need to know?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Energy Regulator
The environmental protection order outlines a fairly good statement of fact if you go through it. I referred to some of that in my opening remarks.
I understand the time sequence of what happened. There is monitoring data available on both Imperial's website and ours. Imperial has posted its mitigation strategy. You can go through those mitigation efforts.
The fundamental most important thing that our team is diligently watching and expecting Imperial to be vigilant on is whether this is working. Are the new containments working?
Monitoring data will be essential as we go through breakup this spring. We and others need to share that broadly so that everyone understands what's happening as water begins to move through that part of the world.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
As I'm reading this, I'm not an expert in this science. On June 3 you recognized the potential indicator of industrial wastewater. What is industrial wastewater?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Energy Regulator
In the nature of this conversation, tailings is the term most of us would recognize.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
It then says there was a suggestion it could be attributed to natural sources.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Energy Regulator
Bitumen is fairly prevalent across this part of the world. It comes in contact with groundwater in many places, so there are natural occurrences of some of those indicators in the region.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB
On November 29, you talked about it “seeping through a common fill layer”. What does that mean for a layperson listening in to this testimony today?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Energy Regulator
As you build an earthen dam, you need to make sure that water can move through that structure. If you try to barricade that entire dam, you risk its becoming saturated and risk a more catastrophic failure. What you do, then, is allow rainwater, runoff and those types of things to move through it so that you have a containment area that involves a number of different strategies to intercept any of that seepage and move it back into the tailings facility.
What occurred in this case is that the containment system in four different locations failed to contain that seepage, and it moved through a specific layer.
There are updates on our website if you want to see if there is more detail about what's happening.
Liberal
Liberal
Terry Duguid Liberal Winnipeg South, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Again, thank you to our witnesses for appearing today and for your testimony.
I'm going to ask my questions, or at least the first question, to our friends from the Northwest Territories.
The Mackenzie River master agreement was mentioned by our two witnesses from the Northwest Territories, and I know it is viewed by many in the water discipline as a seminal accomplishment in water management in this country. I wonder if they could comment on whether the conditions of that agreement were adhered to in this particular case.
My understanding is that if there is any breach, any spill, the Northwest Territories has to be notified immediately. Did that happen? Should that have happened?
Minister, Environment and Climate Change, Government of the Northwest Territories
Thank you.
To your question, no, it didn't happen. It should have happened, but it didn't. If you look at the agreements, it says “could”, and we are making that decision instead of Alberta. It should be us making that decision.
No, we were not informed. We did articulate that message to Minister Savage.
Liberal
Terry Duguid Liberal Winnipeg South, MB
This is a question for Mr. Pushor. I'm late in the agenda here, so many of my questions have been answered, but I wonder if you would just give this a little reflection.
I think you've heard the fear. You've heard the frustration, the anger, the disappointment and the lack of trust that have been expressed by first nations and Métis communities. If you could go back in time and revisit this particular issue and how it was handled.... I've heard you say several times that you're falling back on established protocols, but protocols aside, what would you do differently?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Energy Regulator
Very clearly, there is significant public interest in anything around tailings. If we could go back in time, I think we would look at all our protocols and look at whether or not there is a different test, a different standard, a different expectation around when we communicate, and how broadly and diligently, and in how much detail when it involves tailings.
Liberal
Green
