Environment Committee on April 24th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Could we have a brief response, please?

[Carmen Wells]

Certainly. Thank you.

There is a bias. I don't have the exact numbers, but out of all of the oil sands projects that have gone through, I think maybe one was rejected. I'm not even sure if that's true. If you talk to other communities outside of the oil sands region....

It's shocking. It's a shocking number. Within the community, we do all this work, and everything still goes through as planned. I hear this from the communities, so yes, I would have to say that's true.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

Certainly it's horrifying to hear the impacts that the lack of communication has had on your communities. Thank you for coming in and sharing that testimony with us.

Ms. Wells, you said something that shocked me deeply; perhaps it shouldn't. You spoke about the fact that you see the leadership, perhaps both federal and provincial, as being willing to sacrifice northeast Alberta. That's a shocking statement. On April 19 we heard further impacts from the Suncor mine that had just come through: Wildlife had been found dead.

Really, it seems to me that the trust within indigenous communities is broken and the process to go forward is insufficient and isn't working.

My first question is for both of our witnesses. I've written to the government and advocated on behalf of indigenous communities that indigenous communities be given the authority and the means to do their own environmental monitoring. I assume that the both of you would agree that this an important step.

[Carmen Wells]

I'll let the chief go first.

[Chief Gerald Antoine]

Mahsi.

I'll just add to the last question, and that way I will get into what you asked.

The issue is a lot deeper. It's all about genocide. This is what has been going on from day one. Our families have been uprooted, our functions have been displaced, and our responsibilities have been relocated. We're not even considered as human beings. These are all embedded in the laws, legislation and policies today. If you look at the way this regulatory system is set up, you will see that we didn't have any say in it.

This is our home, you know. This home provides us with a way of putting food on the table. We go out and put a net in. We go out hunting and get a moose. We also.... This time of year the ducks and the geese come. There are certain approaches and protocols that we live in in our way of life. We go out there.

My sister talked about what they are really experiencing right close to the scene. We're a little bit further down the stream. We live the same way of life. The thing is that our backs have always been against the wall. We're saying, “Look,” and this is the message that we also took across to the Vatican and shared with the Pope. This is the truth. We're telling you the truth. This is our home. It needs to be protected. If there are going to be things that need to be done, then work with us. We need to set up certain things that we need to do that.

I see that we need to take steps forward. However, with regard to this particular matter here, the current situation is that if there's something happening to our home that is damaging our home, you need to completely shut down and halt until the full extent of the spills and the leaks has been resolved. You can't just let it continue and continue doing that while making your excuses about falling within the regulations. The regulations are.... It's like they're working hand in hand just to be able to allow that to happen. It's really harming us.

Looking down into the future, this is life and death for us. This is life and death for the land, for all the living things that live in our home. It's life and death for them. We need to quit doing that.

Mahsi.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Yes, thank you very much, Chief.

I do want to quickly give Ms. Wells time to respond as well.

[Carmen Wells]

Thanks, Ms. McPherson.

You mentioned monitoring. Just for clarity, Fort Chipewyan Métis does not have the capacity for community-based monitoring. That's something we're working towards; however, we currently do not have that capacity.

I will say that the duty to consult is the honour of the Crown. I know we have all heard this many times, but that has not changed. Consultation is transferred over to industry to perform and complete, so the Crown is not there. I feel that our community feels fairly alone on all of this and feels a lack of support that all of this is happening. If it were happening somewhere else—and I believe Chief Tuccaro spoke to this—I think the results would be very different.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to our witnesses for this exchange.

We will now be pausing and welcoming our second panel. I'm sure that the witnesses will want to stay tuned for the second panel, which involves an appearance by regulators. Thank you again.

We will take a very quick break to change over.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Good morning. In four minutes, it will be “good afternoon”.

Welcome, witnesses, to the second part of our meeting, which focuses on governance and regulators.

I won't name everyone who's here before us because I'm trying to make sure that we have all the time we need for opening statements and questions and that we finish on time.

We will have opening statements from three witnesses, starting with the Alberta Energy Regulator and Mr. Laurie Pushor.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

We've heard testimony over the last few meetings about how the trust is very much broken with regard to industry and the regulatory bodies.

I would ask, Mr. Chair, according to the Parliament of Canada Act, that we administer the oath to the representatives from the AER, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Does the committee approve that we ask the Alberta—

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I'm generally of the view that representations here have to be made honestly and forthrightly. I'm not sure what an oath adds, but if my colleague thinks it adds something, I'm happy with that as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We have the agreement of the committee.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Natalie Jeanneault]

Mr. Pushor, would you prefer a religious oath or a solemn affirmation?

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

It seems like maybe this is getting a little bit political. If we're going to be asking one of our witnesses to be sworn in, I think it's only reasonable to ask all of them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Does the committee agree with Mr. Kurek?

Go ahead, Mr. Longfield.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I agree that it's starting to look political, and given the timeline that we have in front of us.... This isn't a court of law but a parliamentary hearing, and we need to hear from the witnesses. I think we're going to be hearing from them based on their experience and I think that they'll be telling us the truth. I think that's an assumption we make with every witness, and we don't swear in every witness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We've already agreed to swear in Mr. Pushor. The question is whether we swear in everybody.

Go ahead, Ms. McPherson.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

It is my perspective that it is the trust between the regulator and the community that is broken. I don't see that being the case with representatives from the other groups.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Just a moment, please.

Mr. McLean, I'm told the idea that we swear in everybody would have to be by way of motion. It's a pretty simple motion.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My motion is that all witnesses at this committee shall be considered to be giving evidence truthfully and faithfully as deemed they are supposed to do and that therefore no new swearing in is required.

That is my motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We already agreed unanimously to swear in Mr. Pushor.

[Greg McLean, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

I'm not sure we agreed unanimously.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We did. There was no objection. It was unanimous.

You added in that we should swear in everyone, which is fine. It is a motion on the table, and we can vote on that. Majority would rule.

It's fine if you want to make that motion. If you want to make the motion that everyone—