Environment Committee on Sept. 21st, 2023

[Some hon. members]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay.

(Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4)

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We'll keep going down the list.

We have Mr. Leslie, which today is Mr. Kmiec.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I am happy to sub in for Mr. Leslie, but I can't speak for him.

I wanted to move an amendment to replace the words “to explain why their companies are abandoning their climate targets that had been previously laid out in the face of a climate emergency” with the following: “to testify on their environmental plans and targets”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We'll talk about this, but there's no “their”. It's Suncor.

Are you okay with changing “their” to “its”?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

It's because it's not “his” companies.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

We can just say “Suncor”. Suncor is....

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Invite Suncor to explain why—

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I'm sticking to the amendment the way that I proposed it. I have an explanation for why.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay. Sure.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Do you want me to wait until...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

No, you can speak to it.

Did you say that you have copies?

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

They were going to send them out digitally, so it can be sent around to the committee unless they have a paper copy of it back there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

There are no paper copies. Can we send it out digitally?

We do have paper copies.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Let me know, Chair, when you would like me to start explaining it.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Chair, could we get the latest version of the motion? Last time, I moved an amendment to delete a number of things, and it was passed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I think it was sent. You should have it.

Go ahead, Mr. Kmiec.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Right now, the way the motion reads doesn't make any sense to me, which I think is part of what Ms. Taylor Roy.... It reads that the Minister of Energy and Minerals in Alberta owns companies. He doesn't own any of the companies. It doesn't make any sense.

Also, in reviewing the transcript for the debate at this committee—the part of it that was public—this is the wrong minister. I understand that there was concern about the pause that's been done on renewable energy development, but it's the wrong minister. He's not even the one responsible.

In fact, I have the order in council that was passed, and it's Minister Nathan Neudorf. That's the one who is responsible for the AUC, the Alberta Utilities Commission. That minister is the who is responsible.

There's an explanation. I'm going to read part of it into the record because I want to make sure that everybody understands why this needs to be struck out and why it would be much better to invite somebody else, because right now this motion just doesn't make sense.

This is from the Lieutenant Governor in Council in the Province of Alberta. Again, this is in August 2023. This was recommended by the Minister of Affordability and Utilities, Minister Nathan Neudorf. Here's the order in council, which:

(a) orders the Alberta Utilities Commission to inquire into and report to the Minister of Affordability and Utilities on the ongoing economic, orderly and efficient development and operation, in the public interest, of electricity generation in Alberta, in accordance with the terms of reference in the attached Schedule,

and

(b) determines that the Alberta Utilities Commission has the same power with respect to ordering by whom and to whom its costs and other costs of, or incidental to, the inquiry described in clause (a) are to be paid as the Commission has with respect to its hearings and other proceedings.

When the pause was announced, Minister Nathan Neudorf then instructed the AUC to conduct hearings. There's an inquiry being conducted.

There's a long preamble, but I won't read the preamble into the record so don't worry about that. It piqued my interest. That's why I'm here at a committee that I don't usually sit on.

If people want to pick a fight, then I'll read it.

It instructs the following in the terms of reference for the Alberta Utilities Commission:

[The AUC] shall inquire into the following matters for the purposes of gathering and providing information to government:

a. Considerations on development of power plants on specific types or classes of agricultural or environmental land;

b. Considerations of the impact of power plant development on Alberta's pristine viewscapes;

c. Considerations of implementing mandatory reclamation security requirements for power plants;

d. Considerations for development of power plants on lands held by the Crown in Right of Alberta;

e. Considerations of the impact the increasing growth of renewables has to both generation supply mix and electricity system reliability.

It goes on to say, “In conducting the inquiry, the AUC shall hear from interested parties.” It then says, by March 29, 2024, it must submit a report, so it's not a stop. It's just a pause.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Could you summarize what...? That's a lot of words.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

You have the wrong person. That's the starting point of why I'm here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay. I understand that.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Mr. Chair, I haven't even finished.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Go ahead. Keep going.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

That's the first part of it. You have the wrong person in this. I think the original intent was to speak about this part of it. There's a whole Renewable Electricity Act in Alberta. The targets are legislated. There's no way around it, and the legislation has not been changed because the assembly did not meet. This is the legislation. It's all in here. It was passed by the Legislative Assembly of Alberta. There's no requirement.

There are really three points to this. The minister owns it. You have the wrong person to be calling before the committee. I also don't understand why you only have one CEO from an oil and gas company. You should invite all of them. That's, I believe, what the natural resources committee did. I believe it was actually an amendment from the government side to invite other energy executives as well, but I don't understand why you don't have Gibson, Tourmaline and Imperial—especially Imperial because they're headquartered in my riding. You should invite them to appear before the committee. You are duplicating the work of the natural resources committee, but I'll leave that to the government side and its allies to determine whether that's wise or not in the use of resources among the different parliamentary committees.

Right now, as it stands, it just doesn't make sense. The net-zero emissions targets that Alberta has are legislated. They're by 2050, and they have to be met because they're in legislation. In fact, Alberta is going to have decommissioned all of its coal power plants by next year, which is six or seven years ahead of schedule. It's happening. We're decarbonizing the entire electricity network.

I'll also remind you that everything I read in this OIC, order in council, is exclusive provincial jurisdiction. It's exclusive. It has nothing to do with any other province or the federal government. The provinces—and I hope my Bloc colleagues will appreciate this—are coequal levels of government. My government in Alberta doesn't owe any of us here a reddition de comptes. It doesn't have to explain why it's determined to do something that's an exclusive area of provincial jurisdiction. I just wanted to mention that. I know the Quebeckers will perfectly understand what I'm trying to say.

In the case of our province, we are far ahead of everybody else in having more clean energy megawatts in our province. I think 75% of investments in 2022 by private companies were invested in Alberta, and that is on the record. That is publicly available information out there, so we are leading the way. We have targets that we are supposed to have 15% of our renewable energy by 2022. Again, it's in this act right here. It says 15%. I think we're at 17% or 18%, according to our systems operator. We're supposed to be at 20% by 2025 and at 26% by 2028.

This order in council was necessary from this particular minister because the targets are legislated. This is why trying to strike it out and make it more generic to environmental plans and targets.... Plans are not good enough. You need the targets. That way they can explain the legislation and the legislative framework that exists, if that's the will of the committee.

Again, there are long documents publicly available online on why this is being done. It's so that they can meet those targets. Right now, large investments are happening on agricultural land. Something like 16,000 hectares of pristine agricultural land are going to be turned over into power plants. That is an issue in rural municipalities. The rural municipalities in Alberta have raised this issue now repeatedly over many months, and they're the ones leading the charge in wanting a review, because they want to make sure that farmers, producers and ranchers are getting fair payments. They also want to make sure that....

They fought for a long time to make sure that oil and gas companies were treating subsurface rights and subsurface access in a right, fair fashion. That's not happening right now because the rules are actually different for these two. Before, you had farmers fighting oil and gas companies over the types of graded roads they'd be able to put on their properties to access a well. Now these types of roads are coming back for clean energy development, and they're having the same fights all over again, because the rules are different, which is why this order in council was deemed necessary by the provincial government.

Again, that's a provincial rule. I think this amendment is infinitely reasonable. As I say, there is an inquiry under way right now by a provincial regulator—public—and it's going to report back by the end of March. That's why I think this amendment is necessary. It will clean up this motion, I think, and vastly improve it as it stands right now.

I have other amendments I'd like to propose afterwards, as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Ms. Pauzé, you have the floor.