Environment Committee on Nov. 9th, 2023

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I am going to take this opportunity to make a declaration of conflict of interest. I asked a lot of questions about electric cars, and I am very proud to say that I own a 100% electric car, which I bought second-hand. I am very happy about that.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you.

Now we'll go to Ms. Chatel, please.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I did not want to get into this debate, but I will. Canadians will have to make a pretty clear choice when the time comes: either we continue to fight climate change or we go back to the Stone Age, we withdraw from the Paris agreement and we find ourselves economically isolated.

I want to talk about the economic benefits and reduction of greenhouse gases from carbon pricing.

The Organisation for Economic Co‑operation and Development, the OECD, talks a lot about these benefits. Major economies around the world, such as California, Canada, the United Kingdom and countries in the European Union, have chosen carbon exchanges or carbon pricing as their economic lever. They chose to move forward.

You said earlier that one third of the reduction in greenhouse gas emissions in Canada was due to carbon pricing. An OECD report on effective carbon rates notes that carbon pricing has led to a 73% reduction in electricity sector emissions in the UK. That is something my colleagues may be interested in. There are some data. On the other side of the House, members are not very knowledgeable in this area, because they simply want to abolish the most important tool for making the transition to a greener economy.

Mr. DeMarco, for the benefit of Canadians who may not be familiar with the mechanisms of carbon pricing, can you clearly and simply state how these economic levers are being used?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I can start answering this question, but it is not for me to argue for one policy or another. It is up to the department to do so.

As I said earlier, pricing theory based on the internalization of externalities is well understood by economists, experts, and even the Supreme Court of Canada. It is necessary that pricing be sufficiently high and applied across Canada to have an impact on Canadians.

Departmental officials may be able to provide more explanation.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I do not have much time, so I am going to ask you another very important question.

You compared Canada to other G7 countries. I like international comparisons. However, I wonder about the choice of establishing 1990 as the beginning of the comparison period, because climate action really began in 2015. In any event, over the past two years, Canada has seen the largest emissions reduction of any G7 country.

In your view, what factors are responsible for this very strong reduction in emissions in Canada compared to other G7 countries?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Clearly, since 1990 or 2005, Canada has lagged behind the other six G7 countries. A graph in our report 6 illustrates the situation. We can see that emissions can be reduced. The other countries are not identical to Canada, but they are democratic and developed countries like Canada, and they were more successful at reducing their emissions. So it is possible.

Why are these two reference years considered? I know that 2005 is a very important year for—

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr. DeMarco, but I do not have much time. I was talking about the last two years.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Dan Mazier]

You have 10 seconds.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Excuse me. So you were talking about the last two years.

I feel more confident looking at the curve over a longer period of time. If we look only at the last two years, given the COVID‑19 pandemic, it is very difficult to determine what has been the contribution of the measures and the economy. We do not have the same problem with the curve that extends over 10, 15 or 30 years.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

In other words, we are making good progress, are we not?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Dan Mazier]

You're way over. You're 45 seconds over.

Thank you. If there is anything that can be tabled....

Ms. Chatel, do you want anything brought forward to the committee?

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

If possible, I would like someone to explain in writing the factors of progress over the past two years.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Dan Mazier]

Thank you.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I would simply like to say that I am not able to explain this to you, because there is not enough transparency in the department's data.

If anyone could explain this to you, it would be the department, not our office.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Dan Mazier]

Thank you for that clarification.

We're going to go on to our next round.

Mr. Deltell, you have five minutes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

It is always a pleasure to talk to you again, Mr. DeMarco.

What stands out most from the report, of course, is that by 2030, again, Canada will not meet its targets.

You use strong enough words in describing this reality. I will cite a few. You talk about overly optimistic assumptions, limited uncertainty analysis, lack of scrutiny, missing information, inconsistent information, delays, unreliability. This is proof that, unfortunately, we cannot say that the government has distinguished itself by its rigour over the past eight years.

How can we explain that after eight years, we are unable to use truly reliable sources as a basis to conduct serious analysis, contrary to the government members' claim?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I cannot explain why the department chose not to publish more information on the effectiveness of these measures.

However, I can say that long before my appointment, our office issued a series of reports that called for more transparency and more information on the assumptions and on the results of the measures. That is why we made these recommendations.

Some answers point in the right direction. If the department's actions reflect the answers we are given, we will certainly see more transparency than we have seen so far. I hope it will.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister made an announcement that displeased all premiers and many environmental groups, as well as sowing discord among many others.

What was your reaction to this announcement?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

This announcement came after the conclusion of our audit, so we did not receive any analysis about this announcement. We don't know what the impact would be on achieving the target, whether it would decrease the chances of achieving it. We don't know if there has been an equity analysis with respect to Canada. We do not know whether an analysis was done to determine what signal this announcement could send to the private sector and whether it could have an influence on people's confidence in carbon pricing.

I would like to see such analyses in preparation for the publication of our report next year. However, we have not seen any, as this announcement was made very recently, following the conclusion of our audit.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

That is why we moved a motion to get to the bottom of this. Unfortunately, we were the only ones who wanted to get to the bottom of this issue.

Commissioner, you said that Fisheries and Oceans Canada has failed to collect reliable and timely data on fish catches and that the department does not have an overview of the health of fish stocks in Canada. In addition, you noted that the department needs to improve its oversight of third-party information.

As far as I know, fishing has been practiced in Canada since Canada's inception, and even before; it has always been a reality. How is it that after eight years, this government is not able to obtain basic information for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

We are very disappointed to have had to resubmit virtually the same recommendations as in the last audit.

Indeed, Canada has managed fisheries since Confederation. There are many years of history behind this. There are also many effects listed. The case of Atlantic cod is a well-known example, but other species are now extinct in Canada. This is the case for more than 10 species or fish populations, as defined by COSEWIC's Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans does need modernization. You can't just keep doing what you did before.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Again, this is not a new situation. We are not talking about new technologies. We are talking about determining the number of fish that are caught and identifying the species that are there. That goes without saying. That is the main work of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Why is it not doing so?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

I cannot explain that either. That's what we pointed out in the conclusion of our report. The department needs to do that work, and we recommended that it improve its system. Why has it not done so far, especially since an audit was done on virtually the same issue seven years ago? That is a question for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Dan Mazier]

Thank you, Commissioner.

We'll go to Mr. Weiler, who's online.

[Patrick Weiler, Liberal, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Commissioner DeMarco for his work and particularly for tabling this early, given the urgency of acting on climate change.

Mr. Longfield mentioned earlier some of the numbers we're seeing in the take-up of electric vehicles across Canada, with almost 21% in B.C. and almost 18.5% in Québec.

While there are seven provinces in Canada that have corresponding incentives to get electric vehicles, British Columbia has a zero-emissions vehicle mandate, as does Québec. I think it's one of the reasons Mr. Deltell and I are able to get electric vehicles.

Commissioner DeMarco, I was hoping you could explain to our committee what type of impact a zero-emissions vehicle mandate across Canada would have in reducing emissions from our second-largest source, which is of course transportation.