Environment Committee on Nov. 28th, 2023

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to Mr. Pushor for being here again.

One thing I want to look at is the study that was done by Deloitte. Why was its focus so narrow, given the extent of this disaster and the alarm and danger it has raised for many people, especially the first nations, who live in the vicinity of the tailings ponds?

I remember that my grandmother always used to say that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, yet we're just focused on communications and emergency response as opposed to ensuring that these kinds of things don't happen.

I noticed in the Deloitte report that there was a synopsis of the first nations' testimony there. One thing that was said was that they didn't feel that sufficient testing or the right kind of testing was being done to actually understand the dangers of the waste water that has seeped or gotten into the water, as evidenced by the very high, unprecedented incidence of bile duct cancer.

I'm wondering why Deloitte only focused on communications and emergency response. Why weren't they looking at what led to this happening in the first place?

As my colleague, Mr. Bachrach, pointed out, Imperial Oil's reports clearly showed that some of the limits for the effluent or the solids in or around the area of these tailings ponds were actually being exceeded before this happened.

[Laurie Pushor]

First of all, the intent of the Deloitte review was to address the concerns that were raised by communities about our role as a regulator in informing them about what was happening. It's that specific area that the board was interested in addressing, and interested in addressing swiftly.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Can I just interject for one second to ask you, when you're responding to also respond....

What we heard at the testimony in April wasn't just regarding the lack of communication; it was really the whole incident. What we heard was they were very concerned about the leakage, not just the communication of what happened.

Perhaps you could broaden your response to include that a bit.

[Laurie Pushor]

I'm not sure who you're suggesting was talking about a review that was broader than our communications. I was talking about the board's interest in understanding the criticisms that communities were giving the AER for our communications activities. That's what the Deloitte report intended to do.

Our role as a regulator is, and is actively under way as we speak, to investigate and review these matters to the best of our abilities. We have a very large group of technical experts from across the organization who are working actively to examine all of the evidence in this matter, and they will release their findings. We've committed to releasing those findings when those processes are completed.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

There is no timeline on that. It's just whenever they're done within the next couple of years.

Under the EPA, there's clearly a responsibility for the AER to protect the public interest. I understand that there was concern around the lack of communication regarding seepage and overflow. What has been uncovered since shows that there appears to be a systemic problem with the design of the tailings ponds.

What is being done to ensure that these kinds of problems don't continue to happen? From my understanding, most of the tailings ponds have been designed in the same way. Knowing now what's happened here, how will the Alberta Energy Regulator monitor, or do different testing, as requested by the indigenous people to ensure the assessment processes are more robust to catch these things, or to ensure they don't happen at all?

[Laurie Pushor]

You're very clearly asking me to speculate on things like root cause effects and so on. Those are all elements of any thorough investigation. We will await the conclusion of the investigation that's under way on this matter. All of that information will be made public when that's completed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Garon, you have the floor.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Pushor, I’ll indulge in some personal comments: among the reasons we have doubts about the Deloitte report is that everything you’re doing is based on industry-generated data. This is a self-regulating industry. And I can tell you that a self-regulated industry rarely produces very good results.

This industry persuaded your organization to suspend a long list of monitoring requirements during the pandemic. I have to say, it’s a bit of a smorgasbord.

Have the requirements that were suspended during the COVID‑19 pandemic been fully reinstated? Please answer yes or no.

[Laurie Pushor]

We were asked to review some 300 testing requirements where people were unsure of what to do during the early days of COVID. We suspended 27 of those requirements where we felt the risk to human health caused by COVID—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Time is running out. You’re skirting around the questions, and I understand that’s part of the game.

The answer should be a three-letter word. Are the requirements that were suspended back in effect today, yes or no?

[Laurie Pushor]

Chair, I would just ask that I be allowed to complete an answer. The answer simply is that they were reinstated. I believe they were suspended in the April-May timeline, and they were reinstated by July, and that was publicly reported.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you.

After all that, how much time do I have left, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have under a minute.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Pushor, you talked about your relationship with the First Nations. The Mikisew Cree First Nation asked your organization and the Alberta government to put in place a measure to suspend operations at the Kearl mine.

Many facts were reported over the past 12 to 24 months. You talked about infiltration, but we could also call it a spill; that’s semantics. Given all these facts, and in the context of reconciliation with First Nations, why haven’t you supported this First Nation’s request?

[Laurie Pushor]

Well, again, you are asking about information that relates to items that might be under investigation, and I think it's incumbent upon me to be thoughtful about not commenting on things that could impact the investigation.

I would say that I've had the opportunity to sit with Chief Tuccaro on a few occasions and to be in the community. I understand their concerns, and we will continue to ensure the diligent oversight of the safe operation at the Kearl site.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Pushor, you mentioned a hundred or so monitoring wells that Imperial has been required to drill since the problem was discovered in May. Is the objective of those monitoring wells partly to define the plume of contamination?

[Laurie Pushor]

Yes. We believe that the plume was initially well defined, but we will continue to enhance and strengthen all of our monitoring as we learn and understand more about the pathways and the groundwater movement and—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Has the definition of the plume been defined at this point?

[Laurie Pushor]

There has been a definition of the plume, but we continue to see test results that suggest stable or declining incidents. We want to continue to enhance our understanding of what is happening there in the groundwater, and we will do that until we are fully satisfied that the matter is resolved in an acceptable manner.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Coming back to this question of whether toxic tailings water has made its way into the environment—and we heard statements that this didn't take place—I'm curious about wildlife. There was this surface water that was discovered in May 2022.

I've seen photos of moose in the direct vicinity of that surface water. I'm curious as to when fencing was put up around the contaminated surface water after it was discovered. Can you provide the timing on when that fencing was installed?

[Laurie Pushor]

I can tell you that to date, we have found no evidence of impacted wildlife, fish or waterfowl. As it relates to the specific timing—I'll get that to you and I'll mention it along the way—I know it is completed at this time and it was largely completed during the summer. I'll get you the specific date here in a moment.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The surface water was discovered in February, I believe, and was it in the summer that the fencing was installed? Is that relatively the timeline?

[Laurie Pushor]

We had Imperial install temporary fencing, but we compelled them, as well, to upgrade that to more permanent fencing until some date in the future when we're fully satisfied with the operations there.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Did you say that temporary fencing was installed in the summer?