Environment Committee on Dec. 14th, 2023

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

No, it doesn't take three years. It's going to take another year now that we have the framework to develop draft regulations and final regulations. It takes the team at the department a lot of time to develop these regulations, and we have a responsibility to do it right, because if we don't, then these policies and regulations will be shot down in the courts and we're no better off—

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's 2023. The regulation is going to start taking effect in 2026. That's a lot of time. The question is, how do we encourage the government to move more swiftly to ensure that there's enough time before 2030 to make those reductions?

Right now, it seems that even with the smaller reductions you've committed to, which are less than the least cost pathway that's modelled in the emissions reduction plan, and even with that less ambitious target—

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We're at time, Mr. Bachrach.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

—it's still a lot to do by 2030.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Kram is next.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Are we out of time for a response also?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Well, we're up to three minutes. I'm sorry, Minister.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Okay. I'm sorry. I just wasn't sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You can insert your answer in the response to another question, of course.

Go ahead, Mr. Kram.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Guilbeault, thank you for joining us today.

Minister, are you still the executive vice chairperson of the China Council for International Cooperation on Environment and Development?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Yes, I am, as was one of your previous colleagues in the Conservative Party of Canada.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Yes, and that leads into my next question, actually.

The other day, the National Post reported that your two-day trip to Beijing last August cost $140,000. When Stephen Harper's environment minister, Peter Kent, travelled to Beijing in 2014 to meet with the same council, his trip cost only $9,900, and that included staff.

Minister, why were your travel costs 14 times that of Stephen Harper's environment minister to fly to the same city to meet with the same council?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I haven't seen those numbers, so it's hard for me to comment.

What I will say is that things have changed since 2015. We now have a memorandum of understanding with the government of China to develop policies on coal, on carbon pricing, on joint work on nature, which are things we didn't have.

The meeting didn't last for two days. We were there for four days. That information is public, but I don't have the comparison to 2014. I don't have those numbers in front of me.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay.

Minister, in 2022 China approved the construction of 82 new coal-burning power plants, and for the first half of 2023 they approved another 50. Minister, do you support China's construction of these new coal-burning power plants?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As you probably know, Canada and the United Kingdom started a movement in 2017 called the Powering Past Coal Alliance, which started with those two nations and about 20 other small island states. This organization now spans more than 170 members, including the United States of America and including pension fund investors.

Through the work of the Powering Past Coal Alliance, we've been able to cancel 75% of planned new coal construction in the world, but there's still lots of work to do to fight coal. Scientists tell us that one of the most important things we can do to fight climate change in the short term is to focus on coal and to focus on methane. That's exactly what we're doing.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

When you visited Beijing last August, did you criticize the Chinese government for their ramping up of coal production and burning coal?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

We have a work plan with the Chinese government to work with them so we can help them reduce their dependency on coal. That's what we're doing.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Did you criticize them, or did you encourage them to build more? There were 82 new coal-burning plants last year and 50 for the first half of this year. That's a lot of new coal being burned in China. Given your role on the CCICED, have you played any role in trying to reduce those numbers?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Yes, we have absolutely. We're one of the world's leading advocates for the reduction of coal-fired electricity, pure and simple. With the United Kingdom, we're leading the charge globally. That's absolutely what we're doing.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Have you encouraged China to transition away from coal and towards natural gas?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

We've started the conversation with the Chinese minister of environment on a number of initiatives, including coal, but that work hasn't concluded.

What I would say is that we have to be careful. We have to phase out fossil fuels—all fossil fuels—including natural gas. In most parts of the world, and it's certainly true in Canada, it's now cheaper to produce electricity from renewables than it is from natural gas. It's certainly true in your own province of Alberta, where the cost of producing energy through renewables is cheaper than through natural gas, which is why what's being built right now in Alberta is mostly renewables, because it's cheaper than gas.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Okay. There are a couple of things. I'm from Saskatchewan, not from Alberta.

Do you feel that Canada could play a useful role in exporting liquefied natural gas to China to displace the use of coal in that country?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

There are a number of LNG projects that either have been approved or are in the process of being approved. As you know, the federal government doesn't develop resource-based projects. This is a prerogative of provinces. We have approved a certain number of LNG projects. Some are under impact assessment review right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 10 seconds.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

If you look at the LNG facilities being built in the United States, Australia and the Middle East, you see that they've been building dozens over the last few years. Canada has only one under construction. Why do we have so few LNG facilities here in Canada compared to lots of countries?