Evidence of meeting #93 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Caleb Behn  As an Individual
Yenny Vega Cardenas  President, International Observatory on Nature’s Rights
Amélie Delage  Intern, Pro Bono Student Canada, McGill University, International Observatory on Nature’s Rights
Ray Orb  President, Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities
Deborah Carlson  Staff Lawyer, West Coast Environmental Law Association
Aaron Atcheson  Partner, Miller Thomson LLP, As an Individual
Sylvie Paquerot  Retired Associate Professor, As an Individual
Shawn Jaques  President and Chief Executive Officer, Water Security Agency
David Cooper  Vice-President, Agriculture Services and Economic Development, Water Security Agency

6:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Agriculture Services and Economic Development, Water Security Agency

David Cooper

At a local level it's difficult to capture that degree of detail. The data we capture is at a larger level than that. Without knowing the particulars of the concerns that were raised by your constituent, I'm not exactly sure how to answer that question, but I would say there's a lot of research that goes into agriculture and water jointly with the Ministry of Agriculture in the province and with our stakeholders at the university as well.

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

Madam Pauzé, you have the floor.

6:05 p.m.

Bloc

Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC

Thank you to all our witnesses for joining us.

Mrs. Paquerot, I hear tremendous passion in your words. Indeed, I had the opportunity to read the seventh chapter of the book you mentioned earlier. I invite all my colleagues to read it. It’s very interesting. It’s about the Canadian Water Agency and the blind spots that haven’t been addressed. It’s clear that water management is fraught with peril. Is water an industrial or economic resource, or is it part of the common heritage? Sadly, politicians often fail to address this issue. They neglect to legislate, or, if there are regulations, they choose not to apply them. This is what you are saying in particular in chapter 7.

On the subject of the Canadian Water Agency, you say that the very idea of a Canadian agency reproduces the problem associated with reconciling the two realities. That’s what we’re talking about. In your view, from a perspective of subsidiarity, the agencies or any other organization governing the 50 or so watersheds on Canadian soil should be consulted before such an initiative is launched.

As a matter of fact, we heard from a number of witnesses about the importance of watersheds. It was very interesting.

Could you tell us about the Canadian context? How could we set up a structure, like the Canadian Water Agency, that would truly improve the current situation? Above all, this structure would have to avoid encroaching on each level of government’s jurisdiction—let’s not forget that we’re in Canada.

January 30th, 2024 / 6:10 p.m.

Retired Associate Professor, As an Individual

Sylvie Paquerot

Thank you for the question.

I’ll start at the end by responding to the issue of encroaching on jurisdictional areas. As I said at the outset, what we study in international law reflects what happens in federations. For example, when the same subject comes under the jurisdiction of several levels of government, tensions may arise over the management of resources or problems. There is no magic formula.

The basic idea, I think, is to return concretely to what the environmentalist slogan “Think globally, act locally” means, and to apply the principle of subsidiarity seriously. The reason for this is that, in all concerns about the environment and water in particular, as it circulates, local and global aspects are absolutely intertwined. If evidence of pollution has been found in the flesh of polar bears, it’s because the pollution we generate circulates. It wasn’t the Inuit in the far north who generated the chemicals at the source of this pollution. It’s also found in Antarctica; it circulates everywhere. What we produce in one place has an impact on the global cycle. We have to accept that.

I’d like to come back to the earlier presentations, in which vision was mentioned again and again. You talked about symbolic gestures, but I’d rather invoke our imagination. How do we imagine water? That is a fundamental question today. If we consider it only as a resource, we won’t take into account the disruptions to the hydrological cycle that our alterations can produce.

Let’s talk about infrastructure. You’ll recall that a few years ago, Cape Town almost became the first city in the world unable to supply its citizens with drinking water. When you look at South Africa’s hydrological landscape, you’d be forgiven for thinking that this was done on purpose, because the most abundant rainfall in South Africa doesn’t fall in the region where the crops are grown, or where the tourist industry is located. So the country built huge infrastructures to divert water where it was needed. However, at some point, those measures altered the hydrological cycle, and nothing works anymore.

The places where political and administrative decisions are made therefore have strictly nothing to do with water. You can decide which of your local, provincial or federal governments are the most important, but it matters little to the hydrological cycles, both small and large.

At COP21, the Paris conference, there was an enormous amount of activity to demonstrate how better control, better maintenance of the balance of the small hydrological cycle, which is more territorially localized, could help counteract some of the effects of climate change. It’s vital that we accept that we’re part of a cycle.

In Canada, the word “systemic” has often been used for many things in recent years, but from an environmental point of view, we don’t seem to grasp the full extent of what that means. If we take subsidiarity seriously, it means that there have to be rules, as well as sanctions and controls at every level.

There also needs to be an assertive and dynamic political will—if our democratic system still holds, of course—to ensure that everyone, at every level, is subject to the great principle we’ve agreed upon. But in Canada, we haven’t taken that step.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Your time is up, Mrs. Paquerot.

6:15 p.m.

Bloc

Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC

We could spend hours listening to you, Professor Paquerot.

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Ms. Collins now has the floor.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is also for Ms. Paquerot.

Thank you so much for joining our committee.

Granting personhood to the St. Lawrence River is a project that one of my colleagues, Alexander Boulerice, the MP for Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, has been fighting for alongside many advocates and indigenous nations, etc., in Quebec for many years.

Can you talk a little bit about how granting personhood to rivers might impact governments' responsibility to environmental protection and what you see as potentials in these movements?

6:15 p.m.

Retired Associate Professor, As an Individual

Sylvie Paquerot

There’s no divergence in terms of goals, but, in my opinion, there’s a divergence in terms of strategy. I’m not just a lawyer; I also have a background in political science, legal science and environmental science. As I see it, in terms of effectiveness, the challenge is to see where we can make things happen as realistically as possible, on the one hand. On the other hand, it’s a question of determining whether these changes are effective.

I come from a human rights background. If there’s one area where you can see that, in terms of human rights, the important thing is not the right but the obligation, it’s this one. That’s why I’m working much harder to strengthen the responsibilities and obligations of public authorities. I’d like to share Hannah Arendt’s famous statement with you. She said that, when it comes down to it, we only have one right, and that is the right to a political community that is able to guarantee rights. The same would apply in the case of a river.

My first objection is strategic. I think we’re more likely to achieve our goal by strengthening responsibility and imposing sanctions than by asserting rights. I draw on the last 50 years in saying this.

I’ll now don my political science hat to talk about the second aspect. The obsession of political scientists is power and the granting of legal personhood to non-human entities. The law itself is human fiction. If we look at the past, we can see that granting legal personhood to companies has not been limited to positive effects. In Canada, between 1982 and 2000, the majority of lawsuits under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms were brought not by human beings, but by legal persons, i.e., corporations. We have therefore witnessed the misuse of this tool.

It’s in our own interest to establish a balance. The main argument is that, insofar as we have granted these rights to legal entities, to companies, we need to establish a balance by also giving them to nature. That’s a valid argument, but strategically, I still think that… Forgive me, but we only have to look at the current situation in Israel and Gaza. I think the only tools we have are obligations and responsibility, because the application of stated rights has always required political will. We can write all we want into law, but as long as we don’t have the political will to apply it, we won’t achieve the desired outcome.

Finally, when it comes to responsibility, we can just as easily draw on Indigenous concepts. Basically, Indigenous people use the language of rights because it’s ours and it’s what we understand, but, in their eyes, true responsibility is about being custodians.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you so much.

Just a note for the committee that I will have to leave, and I'll be replaced by my amazing colleague, Mr. Garrison.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

You have a minute and a half.

6:15 p.m.

NDP

Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC

Okay, great.

In the last minute and a half, can you speak a little bit to corporate exploitation? You mentioned corporations getting personhood. In particular, there's the exploitation of water. We've seen it with Nestlé here in North America, but also around the world, and the damage that's doing to communities.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Mrs. Paquerot, you have 60 seconds left, but you will have the opportunity to complete your answer later.

6:20 p.m.

Retired Associate Professor, As an Individual

Sylvie Paquerot

Generally speaking, it must be said that the ability of companies to exploit water depends on national laws. Indeed, it plays out differently in each country.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We'll do a second round, but a truncated second round like the first time, so basically, two, two, one, one, two, two—just short snappers.

Go ahead, Mr. Kram.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We'll go back to Mr. Jaques and Mr. Cooper from Saskatchewan's Water Security Agency.

In the previous round, you suggested that a useful role the Canada water agency could play would be with providing technical expertise. Could you elaborate a little bit on what technical expertise the Canada water agency could provide that Saskatchewan's Water Security Agency does not presently have?

6:20 p.m.

Vice-President, Agriculture Services and Economic Development, Water Security Agency

David Cooper

Thank you for the question.

I wouldn't say that anything really jumps out at us in terms of an area where we feel that there would be support within that vein. We met earlier this week with MP Duguid, and he talked about the disjointed way in which water is managed at the federal level.

I think maybe that as a touchpoint for us would be beneficial, to not have to go to various departments. That does come to mind as one area where focus could benefit us.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK

You also talked about sources of funding. Has the Lake Diefenbaker project applied for federal funds in any form?

6:20 p.m.

Vice-President, Agriculture Services and Economic Development, Water Security Agency

David Cooper

Yes, we've had a number of interactions. The usual response is to engage with the CIB, which we have, but I think the concern, as was raised earlier today, is that it is in essence a loaning entity. We've been asked if we can try to find a grant partner. We have applied through the disaster mitigation and adaptation fund in its previous intake, and have another application for it in its current intake. That's where we've applied for money.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Kram Conservative Regina—Wascana, SK

How has that application to the disaster mitigation and adaptation fund been going? Has it been rubber-stamped? Is it still waiting for approval? Where is it at?

6:20 p.m.

Vice-President, Agriculture Services and Economic Development, Water Security Agency

David Cooper

The current intake is that it's currently pending. At the closure of the previous intake, we did have a debrief, which was very good. They talked about how the project really met the criteria they were looking for through that program, but due to the scale of the ask they were unable to fund it at that time. They did acknowledge that it checked many of the boxes they were looking for.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Ali.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Shafqat Ali Liberal Brampton Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Atcheson, can you please tell us more about your work and the types of challenges you see in your career as related to freshwater?

6:20 p.m.

Partner, Miller Thomson LLP, As an Individual

Aaron Atcheson

Thank you.

I'm a projects lawyer, so I generally work on completing infrastructure projects from inception through to financing and construction. In terms of challenges in the water area, similar to many others—I do a lot of work in the renewable energy space as well—we regularly have clients or prospective clients or partners of our clients who decide not to move forward in investing in Canada, unfortunately, and participating in projects in Canada because of what they've heard about our inability to move forward on projects and to not get mired in approvals processes.

We've been successful in moving a variety of different projects forward, but I would say that the vast majority of my clients who have been successful are Canadian. I'm proud to work with a wide range of Canadian enterprises, including those owned and operated by first nations groups and others. But definitely projects are called off or slowed down or do not happen simply because of the spectre of the difficulty there is to get projects of various kinds done in our country.

That was one of the things I was thinking about when we penned our paper in this area, that the legal personhood point and not the—

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you.