Environment Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today.

I'll start with you, Mr. Bélanger. Thank you for coming.

You provide a lot of advisory services to municipalities. How many municipalities have reached out to you?

[André Bélanger]

We are working with approximately 25 municipalities right now. We are currently developing a watershed-based approach. The idea is to establish a solidarity network between upstream and downstream stakeholders, i.e., between the towns that emit pollution upstream and those that are downstream. Elected officials are coming together to work on the North River in 15 or 16 towns. Not all the towns are on board yet, but a number of them are committed to tackling the problem of pollution and optimizing municipal waste water treatment.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You talked about your AuditEAU diagnostic tool, which I found extremely interesting. Could it be used by other municipalities in Canada? Has there been any interest there?

I'm asking you these questions because this tool seems well designed.

[André Bélanger]

The difficulty lies with the comparability of the data. Quebec is an expert on the quality of data on municipal waste water. It is much more stringent than what the federal regulations require. So we have quite a bit more granular data and metrics. Unfortunately, we are not yet able to make comparisons, but it would be extremely interesting for Quebeckers to know whether the quality of their water is average, or above or below average. When we compare ourselves to others, we tend to feel better.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Yes.

You talked a lot about data sharing, which is not happening. Other witnesses have mentioned the same problem, and no doubt we will hear about it again. Are you using a model that could align with other data collection systems?

[André Bélanger]

Absolutely. We rely on government data. We don't make up the formats. Open data formats already exist. The challenge boils down to a single question: What do we want to do with this data?

We wanted to start with a collaborative pilot project between Quebec and Ottawa involving a couple of municipalities, which would allow us to compare data. Then we would create a common database, which would serve as a comparative dataset across the country.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'm always concerned about risk. You work with people on the ground, whereas the federal government is not at all in touch with communities and people living in the country. We are always afraid that it will start meddling, regardless of the measures that are already being implemented in communities and municipalities, because it does not know the organizations involved or the laws.

Is this a concern for you as well?

[André Bélanger]

When I looked at the briefs submitted on the Canada Water Agency, I saw a difference between Quebec's position and that of the rest of Canada as to the powers that should be given to the agency. It was quite clear that there are concerns on the Quebec side.

However, that is not a major concern for us at the moment. Since the federal government has more of an arms-length perspective, it could actually take on a unifying and facilitating role, without getting involved in the nitty-gritty of the work being carried out on the ground. What's more, because it can issue calls for projects and provide funding programs to stakeholders working on the ground, it would encourage innovation. That's something we mustn't lose sight of.

We should not necessarily rely on the institutions that are already set up in the provinces, because they are often caught up in their own way of doing things.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bélanger.

I'll turn to Mr. Higgins now.

Mr. Higgins, I would like to start out by pointing out one small thing.

There's a footnote to your study on oil spills. However, when I click on it, I get "error 404,” as if the page doesn't exist.

Could you send the document to the committee? That is not my question, but rather my request.

The International Institute for Sustainable Development, or IISD, has a plan to help improve information and data collection on freshwater so as to increase research, training and engagement.

You are seeking $37.5 million in federal grants. However, 11 federal facilities are already conducting freshwater research.

Are these labs, these centres, receiving a portion of the $37.5 million?

[Scott Higgins]

To answer your question, I'm not exactly sure where all of that funding goes.

The funding we receive from the federal government and from the provinces of Ontario and Manitoba goes to supporting our science infrastructure. We then obtain funding for science with our academic and government partners through other funding programs.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You will understand that, these days, when we ask questions about government funding, we like it to be very transparent.

When I look again at your work on information, data collection, research, training, engagement and all that, I wonder whether you aren't already the de facto Canada Water Agency.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That's a good question. We'll have to answer it later, unfortunately.

We'll go to Mr. Blaikie for six minutes, please.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Along a similar line, Mr. Higgins, with the government looking to set up a new Canada water agency, I am curious to know what you think some of the potential pitfalls are in setting up a new agency like that that the government should be seeking to avoid.

What do you think are some of the best practices it should be looking to so as not to simply duplicate work, but actually add value to what's already out there?

[Scott Higgins]

That's a really good question.

There are a number of players in the water sector across Canada, because it integrates into almost every sector in Canada and affects almost every person in Canada.

If you're going to talk about the pitfall side, I think the concern would be issues around red tape and accessibility.

On the benefit side, what we're really missing in the national context is what we recommended, which is this national water strategy, because we really don't understand issues around water quality or water quantity on a national scale. There are some big issues and risks that Canada and Canadians face.

A recent study in the United States indicated that PFAS chemicals—these forever chemicals that are carcinogenic and cause all sorts of human health issues—are widespread across the United States, and were previously unknown. If someone was going to ask me what the status is in Canada, I would say we don't know because we have no system right now that evaluates these sorts of risks on a national scale.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

I'm not necessarily looking for specific organizations, although if you want to volunteer those, that's fine.

What would you say are the sectors that need to be around the table and that the government needs to be listening to as it sets up the Canada water agency in order to make sure that all of the folks who already have a hand in collecting data or actively managing fresh water in Canada are heard at the outset, and that we maximize the potential of the water agency?

[Scott Higgins]

I think the Canada water agency has an uphill battle because, as I said, water affects almost every sector in Canada and it's very important. This goes for many of the federal departments for which water is critical in their mandates.

The provincial governments also have responsibility. This goes right down to the watershed level and watershed groups that monitor and measure water quality or water quantity.

There's also industry and our partners in agriculture. It really goes on and on. There are a lot of individuals and organizations across Canada that this affects.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Is there some thinking about how to try to organize those voices in the setting up of the water agency in order to have the agency be able to accept the advice and the input of those various sectors in a good way and to be able to bring that together?

Are there models that you've seen elsewhere that you think do a good job of incorporating that kind of multisectoral feedback?

[Scott Higgins]

Yes, I think there are models. In the United States, for example, they have national monitoring programs that identify the risks that have come from different sectors, and that can respond to those risks.

Across Canada, as you can imagine, there are large risks related to water quantity. Between climate change, increased rainfall and flooding in parts of the country, and increased risks of droughts in other parts of the country, water quantity is going to be a critical aspect of what the Canada water agency should do. I really think its role needs to be to bring together these disparate groups in order to target issues that are of national importance. There are already many groups working on water across Canada: This work doesn't need to be duplicated, but it needs to be strengthened, and we need a national picture.

[Daniel Blaikie, NDP, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

One of the groups that I'm most familiar with is the Red River Basin Commission, in part because my office, actually, is in a building with theirs. Clearly there's a lot of water work that crosses international boundaries with our partners in the United States. What role, if any, do you think a new Canada water agency should have in addressing those kinds of transboundary questions, and to what extent? Should its work involve that international work or should that be left to the organizations that are already doing it? What's your vision for the new water agency with respect to those international questions?

[Scott Higgins]

Because it's transboundary water, the International Joint Commission is involved and there is a very clear federal role here that has already been accepted.

I think the Canada water agency can play a role: This is one of those issues. Watersheds can be really big and cross provincial borders, like this does as well. Lake Winnipeg, which has massive algal blooms, receives water from Ontario, Saskatchewan, Alberta and from several U.S. states, and it's incredibly challenging. A lot of efforts have been placed on reducing phosphorus loads from point sources like sewage treatment plants, but most of the phosphorus is now coming from non-point sources in this watershed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much, gentlemen.

We're going to start the second round.

Mr. Deltell, you have five minutes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, colleagues.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to your Canadian Parliament.

I'll start with you, Mr. Bélanger. I am very pleased to meet you. Obviously, we all know you. Your organization is very well established in Quebec, as we know. You have over 20 years of service and expertise that should benefit everyone.

Can you walk us through the AuditEAU tool and expand on it? How exactly does the AuditEAU system work? What results have you achieved with this tool? Can you provide some examples of those results?

[André Bélanger]

I can give you a very simple example, that of the mayor of Louiseville, who told the media that there was something rotten going on with water treatment plants. He was yelling, saying that he couldn't develop his city because there were capacity issues.

So we used AuditEAU to take a look. The graphs, which are on a PowerBI platform, allowed us to identify an unknown source of contamination. We realized that every March, there were spikes from sewage contamination and those variations were not normal. We realized that it came from an industrial source. After speaking with the Quebec Ministry of the Environment, we were able to confirm its suspicions. This is an example of the smart use of AuditEAU data in a specific context.

We also do real-time water quality monitoring so that we can help municipalities open swimming areas. Swimming gives us access to data. It also helps us better understand rivers and makes us realize that water quality is variable, which is normal.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Have you managed to turn the riverbanks over to citizens as a result of your follow-ups?

[André Bélanger]

Yes, in L'Assomption, right in the middle of the city. Some people have nicknamed it “L'A-swamp-tion.” People were shunning the river because the water was brown. There is also the Châteauguay River, where we were able to demonstrate that the water quality was fine for swimming.

In all these instances, our work makes it possible to develop a recreation and tourism-based industry that is environmentally friendly. We are currently working on the Richelieu River and the North River. In the case of the Richelieu River, all of the municipalities are coming together to increase access.