Evidence of meeting #21 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was price.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
But it has to have an impact in order to follow with your logic; otherwise, it's a non sequitur. It has to have some economic impact and imperative for a company to act.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
It creates an incentive. As I said, it doesn't cover all of their emissions.
Conservative
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
To be clear, that does matter, because, if they are performing at a lower emissions rate, they make money from the credits.
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
That's fair enough, but then there's still, in aggregate, a fiscal impact to the economy, because it's a driver internally in the economy. I get that. Just how big is it? How big is the impact to the economy? What is the incentive? You know, we can pick a number. If we want to pick $10 billion, I'll pick $10 billion, and then we can proceed with the line. What sorts of industries pay this?
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
There are two things that I'll say. First of all, I just want to make sure that we don't fall into the thought that this is a negative impact on the economy, which I feel like is the way the question is framed.
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
We'll see. That'll bear out in time. What kinds of industries pay?
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
The way that the regulation is set, we don't decide on specific industries. For example—
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
Just give some examples. Just give an example of a company, an industry or subindustry that might pay into it.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
If I was going to use an example, just because the president of Algoma Steel was talking just recently about it, it would apply to, for example, steel. It could, and he said specifically that the change to move to electric arc furnaces makes his industry, his specific business, more competitive.
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
It gives him an incentive to go to electric arc away from blast furnaces.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
It makes it also that, in his business, getting electric arc furnaces is more competitive—
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
Is that under that regime, because there's an economic incentive?
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
No, it just makes it so that his product is more sellable.
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
It's because there's an economic incentive. If it's steel, and steel is incentivized to go to a different type of technology to be produced, where does that steel go? Where does the money come from for that company? Who are their customers?
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Well, I am not the person who is working through the books, but maybe what—
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Look, why don't I just quote the president? He's perhaps best placed to speak—
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
If you'd like to table that, that would be fine, but that's going to take time in my line, and I don't have a lot left.
I would argue that steel goes to just about every other industry in Canada, which is going to be a higher price, because there's an economic incentive to produce steel under a different kind of regime with electric arc furnaces versus blast furnaces. Those customers then have to come up with more money, and I find it rich that this then is being done without any contemplation of our largest competitor in the world, which has no such system in place like this, in the United States.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
First of all, I will go back to the president of the company, who specifically said that it makes it more competitive. Also, studies show that if you're talking about how much you're talking about, there was an assessment that a stainless steel fridge would cost 12¢ more.
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
Right, but how many millions of dollars of steel are produced in Canada every year?
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't increase the cost to Canadians.
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
How much steel is in a fridge? How much steel is a component of the fridge? It's marginal, right? My point is—
Liberal
Conservative
David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB
My point is that this puts Canada in a disadvantaged position vis-à-vis the United States competitively.