Environment Committee on Dec. 11th, 2025

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I appreciate that you've tried to bring productivity or competitiveness into this conversation. I think that it is important, but only a Liberal could come here and try to get us all excited, to get Canadians excited, that somehow new higher taxes are going to do so much good for people, families and businesses in this country.

Our main competitors, as has been outlined before—the United States, Russia and China when it comes to steel, and many other advanced nations—do not have industrial carbon pricing or carbon pricing at all, particularly, as you mentioned, in the trade-exposed sectors.

The timing of this tax increase is very suspect. You've mentioned tariffs and the impact that they're having on many of our industries. At a time when we have increased tariffs, flailing productivity, a reduction in the quality of life and a massive outflow of Canadian capital from this country to find more suitable places to invest, all you've offered, frankly, is a whole bunch of corporate welfare.

I'd like you to tell me how increasing the industrial carbon tax right now, when all of these other factors are destroying Canadian enterprise in this country.... How is now the time to raise taxes? How is that going to increase our competitiveness, and how on earth is that going to increase the productivity of our companies in this country?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I don't think I agree with a single piece of that. I'd say only a Conservative would be blind to the opportunities we have for the future—

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Can I ask a different question, then? Do you think our country is doing well economically? Is our productivity good right now?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I want to refute a whole bunch of things you said at first, but then I will get to that piece too.

I am absolutely shocked that the Conservatives are using Russia as a shining example of what our country should be doing—

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Oh, come on, Minister. Get off it. This is ridiculous—

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I've now heard it several times.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

That is not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say that Russia, America, every other heavy-emitting country and the countries that our industries compete with do not have a carbon tax.

Try to cherry-pick Russia all you want, but the reality is that other nations that we compete with don't have carbon taxes.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

What you're saying is actually incorrect. I'm just trying to get the right statistic here, but I believe that other than the United States, Canada's 10 largest trading partners after the U.S. all have net-zero goals and carbon markets of their own, so—

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I said “competitors”, not “trading partners”. Chinese steel is a competitor.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

We are trying to trade with markets that are looking for low-carbon products, that have border adjustments to give preferential access to those products, so it is not correct—

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Minister, how will the higher industrial carbon taxes in this country increase our competitiveness and productivity? Just tell me that.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

It's not a tax. Let's go to this piece—

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

It isn't, just like the carbon tax wasn't. It was a levy. Is that right?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Well, I was just pointing out that it doesn't go into federal coffers. I think that is a really important piece to clarify.

The second piece is that, first of all, the way it is set up is specifically to support trade-exposed businesses. Our competitors—you seem to love the Russian model or the Chinese model—will actually have to pay more to have access to markets like the EU and the U.K. because of the carbon border adjustments. They're going to have....

It is not true—

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Minister, I'll switch tack here a bit. Are we going to hit our 2030 targets, yes or no?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

As I've said, and I will say it again, unlike the Conservatives, who would walk away from it—

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

It's a yes or no—

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

—I will keep on working and we will keep on working, as a country, to do that.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

We're going to keep trying.

How high will the industrial carbon tax need to go in this country to fill the gap for the target that we are about to miss?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

We as a country have many different pieces that we need to bring in and that we have brought in, but our country is better off moving toward net zero than walking away from any climate ambition, which is all I ever hear from the Conservatives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Fanjoy, the floor is yours for four minutes.

[Bruce Fanjoy, Liberal, Carleton, ON]

Thank you.

Minister, could you share examples of how compliance revenues from carbon pricing are reinvested to accelerate decarbonization?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

There are a number of different examples. I spent some time waxing lyrical about Redpath Sugar, maybe only because it was really fun for me to stand in front of a giant pile of raw sugar as I made that announcement—with the Province of Ontario, by the way—talking about the different pieces of what we were doing going forward.

The estimate is that over 70 major decarbonization projects with a combined value of over $57 billion stand to gain from carbon pricing. There are also many examples of reinvestments happening that work towards emissions reductions.

For example, Emissions Reduction Alberta, which is primarily funded by Alberta's OBPS proceeds, currently has agreements for about 300 projects with a combined total investment of $970 million. Those are many different companies that hire workers in all of our communities and are taking advantage of these opportunities to make their businesses more competitive.

We really need to look at all of those different kinds of opportunities.

If I use the example of McCain Foods in Manitoba, it has the Carberry dryer retrofit project, which will remove the natural gas burners and install a hydroponic loop-and-coil system. This will reduce their emissions, but it will also reduce their energy bills.

If I use the Manitoba examples, when I was in Manitoba, I was there to make an announcement working with the province on how to support farmers in particular. We're not requiring them to do this, but they're putting their hands up and saying, “We want these opportunities,” which are helping to support farmers to change grain drying systems. They were choosing to do that, because they saw the opportunities in doing it.

Time and time again, we go to Canadians and say, “Do you want this opportunity to reduce your energy bills?” and we hear, “Hey, who doesn't want to do that?” At the same time, you can make your product more competitive and actually play a role in the future of your community and the future generations of your family and the families of the people you love and care about next to you to make sure there's a cleaner environment and cleaner economy. People put their hands up.

Those are a few examples. I have others, if you want me to go through more, that go towards cleaning the electrical grid and all sorts of technical projects. We have one minute, so I can do that, if you would like.

I can actually tell you about another project for ethanol in Ontario, which is the membrane dehydration of sieve regen steam project. It installs membrane separation technology to decrease the amount of steam used in the manufacturing process. That's also going to reduce their natural gas consumption and associated carbon pollution on a per-unit-of-ethanol basis.

This seems like a random stream of projects, but it goes to show you it's in many different places. It's in food production, like when I was talking about Redpath Sugar and McCain Foods and when I was talking about farmers in Manitoba. These are examples of how it's helping and making us more productive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

Thank you.

Mr. Bonin, you have two minutes.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I often hear you say that you want to meet the targets, but just because you keep repeating it doesn't mean it will magically come true.

I can do a little math with you. The Pembina Institute says that the delay in implementing methane regulations will increase emissions by an equivalent of 53 million tonnes of CO₂ by 2035.

Do the folks at Environment and Climate Change Canada have the same data?