Environment Committee on Dec. 11th, 2025

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

But it has to have an impact in order to follow with your logic; otherwise, it's a non sequitur. It has to have some economic impact and imperative for a company to act.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

It creates an incentive. As I said, it doesn't cover all of their emissions.

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

It doesn't matter. How much of a fiscal incentive is it?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

To be clear, that does matter, because, if they are performing at a lower emissions rate, they make money from the credits.

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

That's fair enough, but then there's still, in aggregate, a fiscal impact to the economy, because it's a driver internally in the economy. I get that. Just how big is it? How big is the impact to the economy? What is the incentive? You know, we can pick a number. If we want to pick $10 billion, I'll pick $10 billion, and then we can proceed with the line. What sorts of industries pay this?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

There are two things that I'll say. First of all, I just want to make sure that we don't fall into the thought that this is a negative impact on the economy, which I feel like is the way the question is framed.

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

We'll see. That'll bear out in time. What kinds of industries pay?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

The way that the regulation is set, we don't decide on specific industries. For example—

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Just give some examples. Just give an example of a company, an industry or subindustry that might pay into it.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

If I was going to use an example, just because the president of Algoma Steel was talking just recently about it, it would apply to, for example, steel. It could, and he said specifically that the change to move to electric arc furnaces makes his industry, his specific business, more competitive.

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

It gives him an incentive to go to electric arc away from blast furnaces.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

It makes it also that, in his business, getting electric arc furnaces is more competitive—

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Is that under that regime, because there's an economic incentive?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

No, it just makes it so that his product is more sellable.

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

It's because there's an economic incentive. If it's steel, and steel is incentivized to go to a different type of technology to be produced, where does that steel go? Where does the money come from for that company? Who are their customers?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Well, I am not the person who is working through the books, but maybe what—

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Could you—

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Look, why don't I just quote the president? He's perhaps best placed to speak—

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

If you'd like to table that, that would be fine, but that's going to take time in my line, and I don't have a lot left.

I would argue that steel goes to just about every other industry in Canada, which is going to be a higher price, because there's an economic incentive to produce steel under a different kind of regime with electric arc furnaces versus blast furnaces. Those customers then have to come up with more money, and I find it rich that this then is being done without any contemplation of our largest competitor in the world, which has no such system in place like this, in the United States.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

First of all, I will go back to the president of the company, who specifically said that it makes it more competitive. Also, studies show that if you're talking about how much you're talking about, there was an assessment that a stainless steel fridge would cost 12¢ more.

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Right, but how many millions of dollars of steel are produced in Canada every year?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't increase the cost to Canadians.

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

How much steel is in a fridge? How much steel is a component of the fridge? It's marginal, right? My point is—

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

But these are the things Canadians buy.

[David Bexte, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

My point is that this puts Canada in a disadvantaged position vis-à-vis the United States competitively.