Evidence of meeting #27 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was infrastructure.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Muñoz  Director, Advocacy, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Wallace Richmond  Councillor, City of Salmon Arm, British Columbia, Representative, Federation of Canadian Municipalities
Payne  Mayor, Town Council of Parson’s Pond
Boudreault  Professor, Department of Mathematics, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual
Martin  As an Individual
Trowell  North Basin Manager, Red River Basin Commission

11:45 a.m.

Mayor, Town Council of Parson’s Pond

Blaine Payne

Definitely.

Up at the highway is the most noticeable spot. In the last 20 to 25 years, the town put some rock along the top of the bank so traffic won't drive out to the edge. It's been moved four times closer to the road. At least 50 feet of it washed away. It's going five to 10 feet a year.

I mentioned the lighthouse in my statement. I've seen the lighthouse moved twice, but the owner of the land where the lighthouse was said it was three times. He also has a barn there. It's 25 feet from the erosion to the barn now. It used to be 50 to 75 feet. They removed the lighthouse in 2009, he told me, and they didn't put it back because the land kept eroding. Yes, it's been an issue. Our storms have been worsening and everything's been changing.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

That's a good point.

I wanted to give you one more opportunity. Is there anything else that you'd like to pass on to the committee with respect to your town?

Then I'm going to cede my time to the member next to me, Mr. Dalton.

11:50 a.m.

Mayor, Town Council of Parson’s Pond

Blaine Payne

As everybody knows, our neighbouring town, Daniel's Harbour, had a massive landslide in 2006-7. They had to relocate 23 homes, plus seven homes and one business. One home fell into the ocean. That was a big expense. When they moved the road, that cut into the businesses; they lost the traffic that was supporting the businesses.

You cannot bypass Parson's Pond. The pond runs right to the ocean, so protecting us is the only option. It's a safety concern. We don't want to move. We don't need to move if our land is protected. There's no extra expense. There's no side road that government has to maintain or anything. The road runs right through us, so the road needs to be maintained anyway. It just makes sense to give us our safety. That's all we're asking for.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

Thank you, Mayor Payne.

Go ahead, Mr. Dalton.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

Thank you to all the witnesses.

Ms. Richmond, Salmon Arm is a beautiful community. My stepmother lives in Andover Terrace, so I get up that way frequently enough. I represent Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge and part of Mission. Flooding is a potential issue. Actually, it isn't just a potential issue; we've seen that happen there and also up the river in Chilliwack and Abbotsford.

Can you speak about diking? There's been a real lack of investment in the area of prevention specifically in diking. Do you have any comments on that for communities like those on the Fraser River, Lower Mainland and elsewhere in Canada?

11:50 a.m.

Councillor, City of Salmon Arm, British Columbia, Representative, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Louise Wallace Richmond

It comes back to the cumulative impact of climate change. During the big flood in Chilliwack in 2021, when the entire Coquihalla Highway was closed down for 10 days, bridges were washed out. Chilliwack was in a severe state of emergency, as was Abbotsford. That was also tied to the heat dome from the year before, so there's a cumulative impact. Municipalities need to be able to dike rivers that behave on their own.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Thank you.

Mr. Fanjoy, the floor is yours for five minutes.

Bruce Fanjoy Liberal Carleton, ON

Thank you, witnesses.

Thank you, Mayor Payne. I appreciate your joining us today.

Parson's Pond is representative of so many rural communities across the country in that it may be very small, but it remains very important to Canada. It is also an access point to a huge part of the rest of the country. The good news is that I can't imagine relocating Parson's Pond because, to my knowledge, there's no other way to get to the rest of the Northern Peninsula.

In 2022, hurricane Fiona hit the western coast of Newfoundland. Port aux Basques, in particular, was heavily hit.

I'm curious about how far up that went. Did that impact your community? This was now, roughly, four years ago. I'm curious as to the state of your communities as they build back and pick up from hurricane Fiona.

11:50 a.m.

Mayor, Town Council of Parson’s Pond

Blaine Payne

Hurricane Fiona didn't really hit our town that hard. I worked on jobs where hurricane Fiona hit, where everything was built right on the water's edge. I understand completely why it was impacted so badly.

We are at a high elevation in Parson's Pond. If we protect against erosion, we won't have to worry about a hurricane. Our houses are far enough back from the shoreline, so they wouldn't be affected. The erosion is happening and we can only stop it with help.

Bruce Fanjoy Liberal Carleton, ON

The thing about erosion is that it happens very slowly—until it happens very suddenly. You referred to a landslide in another community, and the impact this had on the community.

I want to understand how all levels of government can better help small communities, which, as my colleague pointed out, don't have the resources to address some of these adaptation measures. What are your thoughts on how we can work better to help you prepare? It's more than just Parson's Pond. It's the entire Northern Peninsula.

11:55 a.m.

Mayor, Town Council of Parson’s Pond

Blaine Payne

Oh, yes, it's definitely all of the peninsula.

Speaking of Parson's Pond, if you jump ahead of the erosion and do something today to prevent any future erosion, you won't have to worry. It does no good to wait until the disaster happens, then look at it and wonder why. If we prevent it today, we will be safer tomorrow.

Bruce Fanjoy Liberal Carleton, ON

Ms. Wallace Richmond, I'd like to talk to you.

A lot of our focus is on adaptation measures that can be taken to help prepare our communities for the inevitable challenges we're going to face from extreme weather events. I'm not sure there's any amount of adaptation that can prepare us if we don't also mitigate for the conditions that are increasingly fostering these storms.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on how we strike that balance. What is the right balance between mitigation and adaptation if we want to lessen the impact of extreme weather events?

11:55 a.m.

Councillor, City of Salmon Arm, British Columbia, Representative, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Louise Wallace Richmond

Ultimately, it's about having the discipline to approach all infrastructure projects with a climate adaptation lens, and to recognize that, as difficult as these times can be, there's also an opportunity on the ground for infrastructure investments, local employment and workforce development. There is a silver lining to this, but we all have to commit to the cause.

Bruce Fanjoy Liberal Carleton, ON

Thank you.

This committee has heard from Public Safety Canada, which is seeking public engagement from Canadians on how to strengthen federal leadership in emergency management. I'm curious about your views, based on your experience with municipalities across the country. How can we strengthen federal leadership?

11:55 a.m.

Councillor, City of Salmon Arm, British Columbia, Representative, Federation of Canadian Municipalities

Louise Wallace Richmond

It is complicated by the challenges of federal versus provincial versus municipal jurisdictions, but it's really about working together at all levels of government and recognizing that local government knows best. Start there, rather than waiting for them to ask for help.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Thank you very much.

I'd like to put an end to this session. I thank the witnesses for their presence today.

I shall briefly suspend the meeting, and the witnesses are free to go.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

The committee is resuming its study of protecting Canadian residents from extreme weather events.

We have with us Mathieu Boudreault, professor of the department of mathematics at the Université du Québec à Montréal, who is appearing by video conference as an individual.

Welcome, Mr. Boudreault.

We have Gary Martin, former academic. It's a pleasure.

We also have Rebecca Trowell from the Red River Basin Commission, manager, north basin, by video conference.

Welcome to all.

You each have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Mr. Boudreault, you have the floor for five minutes.

Mathieu Boudreault Professor, Department of Mathematics, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

Good morning. I am speaking to you as a professor of actuarial science at the Université du Québec à Montréal, or UQAM, as the research chair in actuarial and climate sciences at UQAM, and as a full member of the Canadian Institute of Actuaries. I worked with the task force on flood insurance and relocation, and I participated in a research partnership with Public Safety Canada and the Insurance Bureau of Canada. Through the research chair, I work with three of the largest property and casualty insurers in the country.

After a brief overview of the situation, I will discuss three important elements for ensuring the long-term viability of insurance programs for extreme weather events, and I will then propose a potential solution for the federal government based on international experience.

According to the Insurance Bureau of Canada, insured losses have increased by about 6% every year for 30 years, which is well above the rate of inflation. That kind of increase rate isn't sustainable without affecting insurability. Canada isn't alone in facing significant cost increases. For example, in France, the home insurance tax that funds the natural disaster insurance plan went from 12% to 20% in January 2025. As the federal government considers implementing a Canadian flood insurance program, questions about the viability of a public-private partnership are legitimate.

How can we ensure the long-term viability of insurance programs for extreme weather events? There has to be much more investment in adaptation, since the current investments are meagre. However, to get there, it's also important to know where to invest, what the most cost-effective measures are and, above all, how to encourage homeowners, municipalities and provinces to adopt them. For that reason, I will emphasize risk awareness, the availability of financial incentives and the appropriate sharing of responsibilities.

First, it's important to increase mapping efforts for areas at risk. While considerable progress has been made in flood mapping, pluvial and coastal floods still have to be mapped, along with similar mapping for wildfires and hail. The division of powers between the provinces and the federal government also complicates the task of gathering and reconciling the data needed to estimate the financial risks associated with extreme weather events. At the same time, gaps make it difficult to analyze the costs and benefits of a number of adaptation measures.

Knowing where, how and how much to invest in adaptation is good; setting up financial incentives to invest in adaptation is better. Despite well-established public-private partnerships in France and the United States, their immunization programs remain largely underused. One of the major disincentives for adaptation is the capping or subsidization of insurance premiums, particularly for homeowners in high flood risk areas in the United States, France and the United Kingdom. California also offers a striking example of the consequences of capping premiums, which has encouraged people to settle near areas at risk of forest fires.

It's important to understand that a high insurance premium in a competitive insurance market is quite often a symptom of excessive risk and that reducing risk is more beneficial in the long run than artificially capping premiums. While I support capping or subsidizing premiums for low-income households, these measures shouldn't be long-term solutions for making insurance affordable.

I would add that the current division of responsibilities for the financial management of floods can slow down adaptation efforts. Provinces and municipalities are responsible for land use planning, while the cost of financial assistance for disaster victims is largely absorbed by the disaster financial assistance arrangements, or DFAA. That program is funded equally by all Canadian taxpayers. That pooling of costs is commendable, but it's also a potential barrier to adaptation. Converting the DFAA into a self-funded provincial reinsurance program, where premiums are proportional to risk, could help control its use and encourage risk management practices that are sound and sustainable in the long term.

I also propose creating a Crown corporation whose mandate would be to administer this reinsurance program, as well as reassure the industry, provinces and municipalities. A public reinsurance corporation would strengthen the Canadian insurance industry's capacity to manage the risk of disasters such as earthquakes and forest fires and make it less dependent on the international market, which is currently tightening its access conditions for Canada.

The federal government should also support any initiatives to certify the resilience level of buildings. The certificates would send a major signal to the market for maintaining insurability and securing mortgage credit.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Thank you.

February 26th, 2026 / 12:15 p.m.

Professor, Department of Mathematics, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual

Mathieu Boudreault

I had one sentence left.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Okay.

12:15 p.m.

Professor, Department of Mathematics, Université du Québec à Montréal, As an Individual

Mathieu Boudreault

The objective of the federal government and the provinces is to rely much less on the DFAA and, above all, to ensure that investments are used to fund adaptation rather than recovery. This proposal is inspired by the French and British model for flood management.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Thank you.

Mr. Martin, you have five minutes.

Gary Martin As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the committee for inviting me here to contribute to this critical discussion.

I will start by noting that on January 1, I concluded a five-year research position with a team working out of the Sprott School of Business at Carleton University that studied flood risk and the politics of housing development in Canada and abroad. I'm now semi-retired. The following opinions are my own.

I watched some of the recordings from previous committee meetings. I will not repeat scary data, nor will I repeat the demands for the federal government to fund and convene a Canada-wide strategy for adaptation to climate change. I've chosen to talk instead about watershed management for flood resilience in Canada and the Netherlands. I hope, and I'm sure you do too, that I'm not repeating what others have presented to the committee.

In recent years, I have spoken about flooding and urban development with dozens of Canadian and Dutch government and housing industry officials. Following from that research, I invite the committee to look closely at Dutch Water Authorities, an 800-year-old institution with elected boards that coordinate flood resilience, watershed by watershed. Please note that water management in the Netherlands is based on geography, climate projections and benefit-cost analyses, as well as mandates that supersede other political priorities.

Also note that over centuries, a unique model of decision-making has evolved in the Netherlands, which enables everyone from local landowners to senior federal government officials to negotiate solutions, including managed retreat and large infrastructure projects that everyone can agree with.

It's not idyllic. Democracy, as you know, can be messy and time-consuming, but despite changing weather and some close calls, the Dutch have not had a serious urban flood on a major river or from the sea in 70 years.

You may say it's not fair to compare Canada and the Netherlands because the Netherlands has a much longer history of much higher flood risk. Because of the ballooning costs of our disasters, I think it's fair to compare. By the way, we found Dutch people to be very welcoming to Canadians and very generous with their advice.

Now let's compare Dutch Water Authorities with Ontario's 36 conservation authorities, which are also organized by watershed. They have a similar mandate, which includes restricting development in flood zones. Take note that in 2016, Canada's Parliamentary Budget Officer stated that between 2005 and 2014, the province of Ontario had by far the lowest per capita DFAA payouts for flood recovery of all Canadian provinces and territories.

The PBO said this was because Ontario's conservation authorities had kept development out of flood zones. Despite this fact, the Ontario government recently cut their funding and regulatory authority, ostensibly to speed housing development approvals. Critics claim that this was a misguided political action.

Given regulatory authority and a mandate to protect homes and neighbourhoods, a mandate that's hard to politicize, watershed management organizations can prevent development in flood zones. Canada does not have coordinated watershed management. Allow me to suggest that the federal government consider this as one of its strategies for reducing flood risk.

I mentioned the Dutch decision-making around water management, by which stakeholders take as much time as necessary, often around kitchen tables, to make tough decisions. This cultural practice, along with real respect for land and water, has parallels in some of our first nations models of decision-making. Taking this approach to watershed-based flood management would dovetail nicely with Canada's efforts to advance reconciliation with indigenous peoples for the benefit of all Canadians.

Thanks for listening.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

Mrs. Trowell, the floor is yours for five minutes.