Evidence of meeting #30 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was price.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
Excuse me, Mr. Bonin. You have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
Okay.
Mr. Weis, could you tell us about the carbon border adjustment mechanisms in effect in Europe?
Could you also tell us how it might be problematic if Canada doesn't have a carbon price and there are mechanisms like that in Europe?
Senior Director, Industrial Decarbonization, Pembina Institute
Europe is at the forefront of carbon border adjustments, and what that's going to mean is that they'll be basically applying an emissions intensity to products that they're importing.
I think we've found that the United States is not necessarily our most reliable trading partner. We want to be diversifying our markets, so we need to make sure that we're going to continue to have access to these jurisdictions. If there's a carbon border adjustment, and we're not compliant with it, ultimately there's going to be a tariff on the goods that we're trying to export to Europe. It's much better that we collect that money here and invest it in clean technology here than have it be taxed at someone else's border.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
The Environment Canada site refers to the social cost of carbon. It is higher than the current $170 or $130 per tonne.
Should we move towards pricing that represents that social cost for businesses, so that the cost isn't passed on to taxpayers? Companies should bear the cost of the pollution they produce.
Senior Director, Industrial Decarbonization, Pembina Institute
This is an excellent question, a really complex one. Obviously, climate change is a global problem, so it's important that Canada is not afraid to be a leader, not afraid to invest in clean technology and not afraid to move forward. At the same time, we need to make sure that we're not getting too far out of step with where the rest of the world is.
I think that it's a question for this committee and for the government to be able to figure out the trajectory that is appropriate to make sure that Canada is at the forefront of new technologies and keeping prices affordable but, at the same time, balancing that with where the rest of the world is going, making sure that we're part of that international conversation and making sure that the world is taking climate change seriously. It's a complex answer to a very good question.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
You agree though that, after 2030, the price should continue to rise.
Is that correct?
Senior Director, Industrial Decarbonization, Pembina Institute
It absolutely does, especially if Canada wants to meet its goals. We can't stop at the current trajectory if we want to meet our goals and invest in some of these new technologies that are going to be the future of the energy systems.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
Thank you, Mr. Weis.
Thank you, Mr. Bonin.
We will now go to Mr. Jackson for five minutes.
Conservative
Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
First of all, to the folks from the Taxpayers Federation, I've just noticed something very disturbing coming from the other side: There is some laughter happening on the other side while you're answering questions and providing testimony. As a new member of Parliament, this is the first time I've seen that. I find it incredibly disrespectful. Regardless of whether we agree or not with the testimony that Canadian citizens are providing, I don't think that's appropriate behaviour, so I apologize for that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
Excuse me, Mr. Jackson, but we have a point of order from Mr. Fanjoy.
Liberal
Bruce Fanjoy Liberal Carleton, ON
No one's been laughing. We're conducting questions and answers, so we don't require any fiction.
Conservative
Liberal
Conservative
Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Terrazzano, is there any steel in a combine?
Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
There's steel in a lot of stuff, yes, and it's increasing the cost of a lot of things that Canadians buy. It also has the potential to drive out a lot of production, as a trade union in Hamilton has already warned.
Conservative
Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
I certainly agree with that, and I thank you for mentioning Manitoba. Too often our friendly province of Manitoba isn't mentioned in testimony from witnesses.
Fertilizer is a big source of employment in my constituency, so this is a great comparison. Koch Fertilizer resides in Brandon, and we have Deep Sky, which started in Alberta, proposing a direct air carbon capture facility in my constituency, which is technology that has not proven to create any results. It would offer about 40 potential long-term jobs versus 400 people who are and have regularly been employed for over 30 years at the Koch Fertilizer plant.
How do you expect me to go back and justify to my constituents the disparity between the numbers of jobs in my rural Manitoba community that can be created by these two different industries?
Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
I know a lot of people right now have a ton of anxiety about losing their jobs, and the last thing they need is their own government imposing a tax and increasing a tax that encourages their manufacturing plant to leave Canada for the United States. One of the issues around the industrial carbon tax is that it doesn't work, simply because when you impose taxes on a fertilizer plant in Manitoba, for example, that doesn't cut emissions; it just pushes Canadian jobs out of Manitoba south of the border to North Dakota.
Conservative
Grant Jackson Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB
Here is one last question from me, and then I'm going to cede my time to Mr. Groleau.
What are your thoughts on food prices in Canada right now? What would the impact be of an increasing industrial carbon tax on food prices?
Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
I think it's going to make life more expensive. If you impose taxes on the fertilizer plant, that drives up costs for farmers and makes food more expensive. I know a lot of people right now are really worried about buying groceries, putting gas in their car and having enough money left over to save for a rainy day.
With these types of taxes, it's not just the industrial carbon tax. You have the hidden carbon tax through fuel regulations adding about seven cents per litre of gas, and you have the federal fuel tax, which is an extra 10 cents, and you even have tax on top of the tax.
Conservative
Conservative
Jason Groleau Conservative Beauce, QC
Good morning.
Madam Chair, congratulations on your appointment to the committee.
Mr. Gagnon, the government says the carbon tax has nothing to do with inflation and the cost of living.
What is your position on the industrial carbon tax?
At the end of the day, is it because of this tax that things are costing Canadians more?
Nicolas Gagnon Quebec Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
Thank you very much for your question.
Last week, the Government of Quebec tabled its 2025‑27 budget. The budget acknowledges that inflation in Quebec is the highest in the country. It also acknowledges that that is because the consumer carbon tax was removed as of April 1, 2025. However, we still have our own carbon pricing in Quebec, which amounts to about 9 cents or 10 cents per litre of gas.
That is recognized. The impact on people's wallets when they fill up their vehicles is recognized, as well as the impact on business productivity. The Canadian Federation of Independent Business conducted surveys recently that found that more than 80% of the federation's member companies recognize the impact on their productivity.
I rarely comment on leadership races, but we know that the Coalition Avenir Québec, or CAQ, is having a leadership race and that whoever wins will be the premier as of April 12. Both candidates have promised to reimburse Quebec farmers for the carbon tax, a tax that has cost farmers up to $550 million since 2015. So that acknowledges the impact of the carbon tax on the cost of food, a cost that is inevitably passed on to consumers and all Quebec taxpayers.
Conservative
Quebec Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation
The cost varies, of course, depending on the number of vehicles the consumer owns. It also depends on the type of home heating used, whether it is gas or some other type. According to the Institut du Québec though, which published a report in November 2025, the cost is about $575 per household in Quebec. That is, of course, for a one-car household.
We also have to consider the impact of this tax on the cost of groceries. Even if you don't have a car, you do pay the cost of the carbon tax, unfortunately. So it's roughly $500 to $600 per household.
We must also remember that, according to projections from Quebec's environment department, the cost of the carbon tax is expected to double by 2030. Unfortunately, that cost will also increase for all Quebecers.