Evidence of meeting #39 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forecasting.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

John Pomeroy  Distinguished Professor, Department of Geography and Planning, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Fortin  Director General, Policy, Planning and Partnerships Directorate, Department of the Environment
Boag  Director General, Freshwater Policy and Engagement, Canada Water Agency
Vu  Director General, Canada Centre for Mapping and Earth Observation, Department of Natural Resources
El Bied  Director General, Emergency Management Policy and Outreach, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Lane  Executive Director, Legislative Governance, Department of the Environment
Aman Deep  Director, Science and Technology Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Good afternoon, everyone.

This is meeting 39 of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.

For those here in person, please remember to follow the health and safety guidelines, per the cards on the table, to prevent audio feedback incidents.

I have a couple of housekeeping pieces before we get to our business.

I would remind you that the deadline to submit written amendments to Bill C-241 is this Thursday, May 28, at 4 p.m.

I have an update on the invitation to Ms. Dawn Farrell of the Major Projects Office. She has declined to appear before this committee throughout the month of June based on her schedule. We may wish to consider some next steps on inviting Ms. Farrell again during committee business in the near future.

Regarding the approved motion for the study of the government's plastic manufacturing policy, in February, the committee agreed to hold one meeting to study this policy, and if there's no objection, we propose to schedule this, ideally, on June 11 during our regular meeting of ENVI. We could do June 18, but we're not sure if we'll still be here, so the 11th would be a safer date to hear witness testimony and invite the Minister of Environment, Climate Change and Nature to appear.

If that is the will of the committee, the clerk will invite witnesses to appear and, ideally, would have your witness requests by this Friday, May 29, by 2:30 in the afternoon.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Excellent.

Today we are discussing Bill C-241, an act to establish a national strategy respecting flood and drought forecasting. We have member of Parliament Tatiana Auguste here from Terrebonne. This is her private member's bill. Online, we have John Pomeroy, distinguished professor from the University of Saskatchewan, who is integral to the creation of this private member's bill.

I understand that you each have opening remarks, so you'll each have five minutes to present, and then we'll go to questions from committee. We will begin with Ms. Auguste.

You have five minutes. I do have a little card to warn you at the one-minute and time's-up marks. Don't let it stress you out. When you're ready, the floor is yours.

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

Thank you.

I would like to thank all the committee members for inviting me.

Madam Chair, I would like to start by saying that extreme weather events are now part of everyday life in many regions. Every year, municipalities across the country see their infrastructure weakened, their roads submerged, their soil dried out and their homes flooded.

I'm thinking in particular of my own constituency of Terrebonne, where I've seen first‑hand the very real effects of heavy rains. For us, sudden rainfall events, unexpected flooding and erosion risks aren't simply meteorological phenomena. They're part of our daily lives. When the Mascouche River or the Mille Îles River threatens to overflow, it's about more than just hydrological data. It's also about families who fear losing their homes, business owners who risk losing everything and municipal infrastructure being put to the test.

This is exactly why I believe that Bill C‑241 is essential. It proposes to establish a national strategy for flood and drought forecasting based on science, coordination and transparency. However, for this strategy to really work, it must be based on high‑quality and consistent data. Today, each province, territory and indigenous government collects its own hydrological information using different instruments, observation networks that vary from region to region and analytical methods that aren't always compatible. These differences create silos that limit the collective ability of these players to effectively anticipate floods and droughts.

To move forward together, we need to narrow these gaps and strengthen the interoperability of the structures in place. Bill C‑241 doesn't seek to centralize work or remove powers. Instead, it seeks to bring together knowledge and tools around a shared objective. This objective is to strengthen Canada's capacity to anticipate and prevent hydrological disasters.

Canada can't rely on the United States and it needs to ensure data sovereignty. If Canada wants full control over its prevention capabilities, it must have data. Today, our country still relies on data supplied by foreign organizations, in particular the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. While useful, this data has sometimes proven to be inaccurate or ill‑suited to Canada's realities.

Bill C‑241 aims precisely to correct that dependence by strengthening Canada's autonomy and ensuring that its decisions are based on data produced here, by Canadians. The data must be produced to meet Canada's needs. The bill proposes a co‑operative model where information collected by different jurisdictions can be interconnected and analyzed jointly. That way, Canada can offer all municipalities, from coast to coast to coast, the means to respond faster, to plan more intelligently and to protect their residents.

The costs of doing nothing are already enormous. In 2024 alone, insured losses related to climate events in Canada reached $8.5 billion. After storm Debby, the cost of insured damage in Quebec was $2.7 billion. Millions of people had to be temporarily relocated. Terrebonne wasn't spared. Road closures, pressure on infrastructure and repeated emergency responses put a strain on the constituency's finances.

Bill C‑241 provides a national framework to help better plan infrastructure, improve access to data, coordinate responses and, ultimately, save lives.

In conclusion, I would say that Bill C‑241 amounts to much more than a technical framework. It's a commitment to the safety of Canadians, an investment in the collective resilience of Canadians and a concrete step for communities. We need to choose prevention over reaction, coordination over isolation and resilience over vulnerability. So much more than data and property damage are at stake. At stake are faces, names and addresses and members of Canada's communities.

I invite my colleagues to support this bill and to work together on building a Canada that's better prepared for climate challenges.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Thank you, Ms. Auguste.

We will now turn to Mr. Pomeroy for five minutes.

The floor is yours.

Dr. John Pomeroy Distinguished Professor, Department of Geography and Planning, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Greetings to the committee members.

I'm speaking to you from Halifax, Nova Scotia, and noting that, across the country, flood and drought damages have risen dramatically and are expected to rise further as extreme weather and water events due to climate change, coupled with our growing communities and increased economy, are putting us in greater risk. Flood plains are growing, and droughts are intensifying. This is impacting many communities, industries and farms across the country. Even the Maritimes had a severe drought last year.

Our flood and drought forecasting prediction in Canada follows a historical piecemeal approach. There's a federal system developed top-down using a weather forecasting approach that is not widely shared, but some of the provinces have access to it. Each province and territory—13 of them—have developed their own systems, and none of these are interoperable. It's a fragmented approach, which has meant slow uptake of new technology and limited uptake of the more sophisticated federal system. There is a wide desire and need for common modelling frameworks, common approaches and coordinated forecasting systems.

In 2013, the floods in Canmore, Alberta—and I was there—occurred before the provincial forecast occurred, and there was tremendous damage in that community. Later in High River, again, the floods occurred before the prediction of floods. The evacuation was not orderly, and people died.

At that point, I decided that we had to have something change in this country.

Unfortunately, that was only the beginning of these massive flooding and drought events associated with wildfires in the north, with drought across the Prairies, the Maritimes and southern Ontario and Quebec, and with floods that have hit every province and territory every spring. We have come to expect it now, but we need to know where they are.

A federal-provincial co-operative system could better ensure that the limited resources and techniques we have available in Canada can most effectively support operational forecasting and prediction from co-operative, co-developed systems. My recommendation is to move towards a more coherent flood and drought forecasting and prediction framework for Canada.

This can be done by developing a national flood and drought forecasting framework to coordinate local, regional and international efforts and to enable the operationalization of state-of-the-art science and technological advances in water forecasting prediction. This should be co-developed with provinces, territories, universities, communities and first nations to be mindful of local realities and to build credibility and trust.

The national framework will need to articulate accountability and the responsibility of individuals in the flood and drought early warning chain. As well, the national framework should encourage forecasters and decision-makers to have access to a wider variety of Canadian data products while clearly communicating the authoritative forecast and its predictive uncertainty.

A community of practice is needed to facilitate co-operation amongst operational forecasters, government agencies, industry, academia and international experts. Then we will need creative outreach campaigns to build societal resilience to floods and droughts through improved communication and public engagement.

Recently, universities in Canada and federal government agencies designed a coherent approach to flood forecasting that could respect local hydrological realities while ensuring that state-of-the-art flood forecasting science and technology are made available to all decision-makers and stakeholders across the country, but federal leadership is required to implement this approach, convened with the provinces and territories, to create a truly national, co-operative flood water forecasting and prediction system.

I strongly commend Bill C-241 as a timely mechanism for gathering and coordinating our national capabilities for flood and drought forecasting. Possibly, it could be convened under the leadership of the Canada Water Agency in collaboration with Environment Canada and other agencies.

Better water predictions will improve water security, reduce flood damages, make our communities safer, improve crop yields, grow our hydroelectricity revenues and provide for better ecosystem conservation.

We face a future where others are looking at our water.

The Canadian public demands improved warnings of extreme events, and our industry and agriculture are competing in a more data-driven world. We have increasing damages from extreme water events, which can cripple our prosperity and destroy our environment and communities. Using science-informed predictions, we can support the growth of Canada's economy, society and environment. We need to implement a visionary strategy such as is contained in this bill as quickly as possible and support it as fully as possible.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Thank you very much, Mr. Pomeroy.

You said you're speaking to us from Halifax, if I'm not mistaken. I'll give you a very warm welcome to my riding and my fair city. I hope you're enjoying yourself.

3:55 p.m.

Distinguished Professor, Department of Geography and Planning, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

We will now turn to questions from committee members.

Mr. Bexte, you have six minutes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you very much, Chair.

Welcome to the witnesses and Ms. Auguste. I appreciate your time here today, and your testimony.

I have so many questions. To start, since you've introduced this bill, what consultations have you conducted with agricultural stakeholders?

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

Thank you so much for your question.

The agricultural stakeholders have mostly been in my riding. As well, some agricultural stakeholders in Saskatchewan have told us about the great difficulties of dryness during a certain period of time.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

The Canadian Federation of Agriculture sent a letter to this committee commending the bill's objectives, but they outlined clear recommendations that they wished to be put in place for this legislation to succeed. One of the recommendations was the need for investing in strengthening national data integration of forecasting capacity. Have you looked into some of the logistics around the possible integration and what models other provinces are using now? How would that be integrated?

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

At the moment, there is such a wild variety of ways in which provinces deal with data concerning floods and drought. We can go from an Excel sheet on a computer to a quantum computer. The goal of this bill is truly to bring everybody together and to be able to put everybody on the same level.

Regarding integration, maybe that question can be turned over to Dr. Pomeroy. He's the weather expert here on modelling.

It is the objective of this bill to have everybody speak the same language in terms of data in order for—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

You yourself haven't looked into the logistics of implementing this.

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

No.

4 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

All right. Thank you.

Such stakeholders as the Alberta Irrigation Districts Association have recommended that any national flood and drought forecasting system created under this legislation be transparent and open-source. Why does Bill C-241 not explicitly require open-source?

4 p.m.

Liberal

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

It was not a consideration at the time, but if it's the will of this committee, I'm really open to making the necessary changes for this bill to be good for everybody.

4 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

AIDA warned that the existing federal and provincial forecasting systems aren't easily interoperable, which you've mentioned already. Before introducing Bill C-241, did you receive any assurances from departments that Canada currently has the technical capacity to harmonize these systems?

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

Different provinces have different ways of working. In Quebec, we are very advanced in our flood and drought forecasting. To be able to do this national strategy, we would be bringing the expertise we have elsewhere in the country for the use of all Canadians. Dr. Pomeroy suggested the Canada Water Agency. It could also be done in other agencies that we currently have in government.

4 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Is this a carrot or a stick to get provinces onto the program? You implied that there's a spectrum of maturity in provincial systems. Would you be implying an overarching federal system, or the best provincial system and then applying that to other provinces? I'm trying to get at the mechanics of how this works.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

It's really a collaboration—a space for all provinces to bring what they have best and to see what could work for everybody. It's not about federal overreach at all.

4 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

It's not prescribed.

Do you anticipate that there will be additional costs put on provinces? In order to participate in this collaboration, will the provinces pick up the cost, or will this be a federal cost?

4 p.m.

Liberal

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

Since it's a private member's bill, this bill does not cost anybody.

4 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

To implement the work, somebody's going to have to do some work, which will cost.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Tatiana Auguste Liberal Terrebonne, QC

We would have to create the strategy first and do the work. Then it would come back to Parliament. Parliament can see fit to do with it what it will.