Evidence of meeting #42 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
Yes.
Can the witnesses please identify themselves by name and title for the record, when they're ready?
Stephanie Lane Executive Director, Legislative Governance, Department of the Environment
Hello, Madam Chair.
My name is Stephanie Lane, and I'm the executive director of legislative governance at Environment and Climate Change Canada.
Doris Fortin Director General, Policy, Planning and Partnerships Directorate, Department of the Environment
Hello.
I'm Doris Fortin, director general of policy, planning and partnerships for the Meteorological Service of Canada.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to the officials for being here.
I have a number of questions about this particular amendment.
I'm wondering if you could confirm that the national hydrometric program is primarily a monitoring program, not a flood or drought forecasting service.
Executive Director, Legislative Governance, Department of the Environment
The national hydrometric program is indeed a hydrometric monitoring program that's cost-shared between the federal government, provinces and territories. In addition to being responsible for monitoring water levels and flows, it makes data available to Canadians and other users of the data. Also, as part of the Meteorological Service of Canada, the National Hydrological Services have developed modelling capabilities for water levels and flows.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Therefore, yes, it's monitoring.
If this amendment is simply pointing to a program that already exists rather than its initial intent in the legislation, why would the committee see this as a serious response to worsening floods and droughts?
Executive Director, Legislative Governance, Department of the Environment
I will begin with the answer, and then if my colleague has something to add....
I believe, Madam Chair, that the member is speaking to the amendment proposed to paragraph 3(3)(d), which adds that the strategy must include:
(d) measures that the Government of Canada may take in response to the assessments referred to in paragraphs (a) to (c), including
Then it goes on to say “the preparation of a proposal”, and so on. The intention of referring to the previous paragraphs was to reflect that the proposal referred to in paragraph 3(3)(d) would take into account all of the assessments and the analysis that were done as part of the strategy in paragraphs 3(3)(a) to (c), as well as to include a proposal for the establishment of a co-operative forecasting service.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Is that the answer?
I'm going to go back to the difference between monitoring water levels and appropriately forecasting flooding. Would you agree that collecting river level data is not the same thing as producing a flood forecast?
Director General, Policy, Planning and Partnerships Directorate, Department of the Environment
You are correct. Collecting data is one of the ingredients for doing the flood forecasting.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
What would the national hydrometric program do today that would qualify as forecasting rather than monitoring?
Director General, Policy, Planning and Partnerships Directorate, Department of the Environment
We have modelling that predicts water levels and flows.
Perhaps, if this can be helpful, the reason we are proposing the last correction, as noted by the member previously, is that the national hydrological services, the entity, is not a federal-provincial distributed model. It's a Government of Canada entity. What is federal and provincially distributed is the national hydrometric program. That is what we do in collaboration with provinces and territories.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
It's in collaboration with.... Does it issue warnings to provinces and territories or Canadians?
Director General, Policy, Planning and Partnerships Directorate, Department of the Environment
The responsibility for warning citizens about floods belongs to provinces and territories. The national hydrometric program or the National Hydrological Services do not issue warnings for flooding or droughts.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Let's say that we see a river gauge that has the water level rising. What happens? How does that raw measurement get turned into something that those other jurisdictions, which you say are responsible, can actually do something with?
Director General, Policy, Planning and Partnerships Directorate, Department of the Environment
The water level data from the gauge is shared with provinces and territories. Either emergency management organizations or flood forecasting agencies at the provincial and territorial level are the ones responsible for taking that data and turning it into a warning or an alert for their constituents.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
It seems to me that this amendment is being presented as though there's an existing federal program that's going to solve the forecasting gap. You just said it's shared with the provinces. Can you square that circle for me?
Director General, Policy, Planning and Partnerships Directorate, Department of the Environment
I think what the text says is that there's a need to prepare a proposal for the establishment of a forecasting service that's based on the co-operative model that already exists in the national hydrometric program.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Could you tell me, as the bill originally stated, what new obligations the minister would have and what the amendment would alter? What is the obligation that the minister or the department has after or if this bill is amended via G-1?
Executive Director, Legislative Governance, Department of the Environment
The strategy will still need to include the elements in paragraph 3(3)(d), but it also will add that the measures that the strategy must include should also be considered in light of the analysis of the other elements of the strategy. It would also need to take into account the assessment of the need for modelling, as identified in paragraph 3(3)(b), and the benefits of coordination and new investment in paragraph 3(3)(a), as well as the measures that are relevant on the basis of the analysis referred to in the other paragraphs of subclause 3(3).
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
The amendment says, as I asked our parliamentary secretary, that the minister “may take....” Does that mean the minister is permitted to take these measures but is not required to? Is that correct?
Executive Director, Legislative Governance, Department of the Environment
The language of the text says that the strategy must include “measures that the Government of Canada may take”. The strategy, as framed, would not direct the minister to do certain things or the government to do certain things.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
The amendment lets the government more or less study and potentially, maybe, take some steps, but it doesn't actually force it to do anything. That's why I said the word “neuter” early on. This really relieves the minister's department and this service of any real obligation. Is that correct?