Environment Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2025

[Carol Anstey, Conservative, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Just to follow up on that, you're talking direct, but would you agree that there's also an indirect impact beyond that, in terms of other small businesses starting up? I'm wondering if you can expand on the indirect impact this will have on our communities.

[Renaud Brossard]

It's hard to properly calculate the indirect impact. It's hard to figure out where we stop calculating it. Of course, it is something that will have an impact and it is something that a lot of people don't think of. They think of only the oil and gas communities, but these jobs are throughout the country. There are oil and gas jobs, or jobs that are indirectly associated with oil and gas, throughout the country, whether it is in the services industry or in the manufacturing sector that supports the energy industry in the country. Of course, there are fly-in and fly-out workers from other places, but there's also a whole ecosystem that supports these jobs.

Then, of course, there's the effect on local businesses. If the local oil and gas concern goes out of business, well, that's also a restaurant that will see less patronage. That's a grocery store that will see less patronage. All of those other businesses suffer from it as a result as well.

[Carol Anstey, Conservative, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you. I think those are all very important points.

I also wanted to put a little extra emphasis on the potential this has in terms of the long-term sustainability of Canada's energy sector. Could you potentially speak to that?

[Renaud Brossard]

Absolutely. Is that with regard to the EV mandate, or is it more about the emissions cap? Both would be an issue for Canada's energy system.

[Carol Anstey, Conservative, Long Range Mountains, NL]

My question was specifically about the emissions cap, but feel free to talk about either.

[Renaud Brossard]

I'd be more than happy to.

On the emissions cap and what it does for Canada's energy, we know that energy is a big part of our economy. It's an important industry. It's also a wealth-generating industry that allows us to export. It has an impact on a lot of our first nations communities as well, where oil and gas is one of the only employers, in some cases, but also one of the best employers in terms of revenue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Fanjoy, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Bruce Fanjoy, Liberal, Carleton, ON]

Thank you, witnesses, for joining us today.

My first question is for Ms. Doran.

In your view, where should Canada be focusing its investments when it comes to electrification and the infrastructure needed to support it?

[Rachel Doran]

Canada has an important role to play on two sides. One is attracting investment here to Canada and spurring those industries, which, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, are going to be playing an increasing role globally, no matter what direction Canada takes. It's ensuring we have that backbone of an electricity grid that's going to spur investment and industrial production here in Canada.

Alluding a bit to what we heard in my colleague's remarks as well, this is also important for household affordability and energy security. Some of the technologies I'm describing.... For electric vehicles we've done numerous studies on the total cost of ownership. The last time we looked at these numbers, this has proven to save Canadians an average of $3,000 per year over the lifetime ownership of their vehicle. That could be up to $30,000.

Those numbers change depending on the supports available, but it is statistically proven that it costs less to power up with electricity than with gas. It's really important for the government to also be thinking about that flip side of the coin and how to make sure Canadian households are benefiting from this. It is proven that they are looking for government support to be able to access and benefit in what we're seeing in this global energy transition and switch to electrification.

I think leaning in on the kinds of industries that clearly.... Numerous studies have looked at our potential for value-added in forestry and the importance of critical minerals feeding into a number of clean energy industries. Canada has a lot to offer here. It's not just to one supply chain; it's to many. We really need to be looking at some of those places where Canada can use our innovation, our labour and our upstream advantage.

[Bruce Fanjoy, Liberal, Carleton, ON]

Again for Ms. Doran, you've mentioned that the U.K. Climate Change Committee found that the cost of reaching net zero has fallen by 75% in their experience. What lessons can Canada draw from the U.K. experience or those of other nations in revising our cost projections?

[Rachel Doran]

I think what we're seeing happen globally is the amount of change in the last five years in the cost of individual technologies, things like an analysis from Bloomberg that shows a decline of more than 85% in lithium-ion battery prices between 2013 and 2024. We've seen the cost of things like wind and solar reduced by up to 90% between 2010 and 2024. It's just changing the math.

I mentioned in my opening remarks how this isn't a moral imperative but an economic imperative. We're talking about both benefits for households as well as this kind of technology taking off, not just because it might be needed under specific domestic regulation but because it is the most competitive. In most markets around the world, solar PV or wind now represent the cheapest available sources of new electricity generation.

These are some of the numbers and stats behind something like the U.K. Climate Change Committee looking at what they might have looked at five years ago and thinking about the cost of meeting some of these regulations and requirements and seeing that under the current economic conditions, the reality has changed. Some of this is radically different from what it would have been five years ago.

[Bruce Fanjoy, Liberal, Carleton, ON]

I have a question for Mr. Brossard.

I listened to your arguments about jobs in oil and gas. I understand that. We rely on that energy and will for some time as we go through this transition. I thought the arguments about the direct jobs and indirect jobs could also have been the same arguments used to defend the coal industry in the last century.

I'd like you to elaborate on why you think this time is different and we should not ambitiously move forward with better technologies, and how that affects our long-term economy.

[Renaud Brossard]

We at the MEI are agnostic when it comes to the type of energy that is to be used. We understand there is a demand for energy and that demand is going to be met in one way or another.

The difference is that a lot of the phase-out from coal did not come as much from government mandates but rather from the fact that more efficient sources have come online and progressively things have changed.

One of the best ways Canada could help reduce greenhouse gas emissions—this was a note from the National Bank—would be to improve the facilities to export natural gas, so we could replace a lot of the new coal generation coming online in India with clean-burning Canadian natural gas. There's a lot to be said about the benefit this industry can bring.

[Bruce Fanjoy, Liberal, Carleton, ON]

You mentioned that coal was phased out because of more efficient solutions. Electricity has been demonstrated to be up to three times more efficient than fossil fuels and is increasingly affordable and accessible for Canadians. If affordability matters to Canadians, why would we not move ambitiously to electrify our energy consumption?

[Renaud Brossard]

That's an excellent question, and thank you for asking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

I'm sorry to interrupt here.

Mr. Brossard, unfortunately, your time is up. You can answer that question in another round.

Mr. Bonin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Doran, you specialize in green energy, among other things. Do you think oil can be green? When the Prime Minister says “decarbonized oil”, do you think that's possible?

[Rachel Doran]

Thank you very much for the question.

I think the focus of our organization is very much on the potential and possibility for electricity and the role it should play in our economy, both from a decarbonization perspective and also from an economic perspective. I think it's demonstrably proven that globally, where the economy is going is looking for those economic reasons to start from electrification and move backwards. Electrification can be zero carbon. We can be plugging in so many different purposes, whereas no matter what you're doing with a fossil fuel, you can abate emissions but not remove them.

Again, our organization is very much focused on electricity for its possibility to cost-effectively meet demand, to use its efficiency power and to do the vast majority of what we have relied on fossil fuels to accomplish in past eras.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

According to the Montreal Economic Institute, among others, it's unrealistic to have a zero-emission vehicle standard. Can you compare our standard to the best practices around the world, which could inspire Canada in this area?

[Rachel Doran]

Again, thank you for the question.

I would say one thing we're focused on—and this is why I really emphasized the next five years in my remarks—is that we can do so much today so cost-effectively. I think one of the challenges around conversations about emissions is that we tend to focus on that last 10%, rather than on the 90% that we know how to solve cost-effectively. We have the technologies, and they are ready to go. We just need to scale them.

The focus of our organization's approach is really thinking about how we can amplify the role of electricity in Canadian homes and buildings to benefit Canadian consumers and households. How can we use it to attract industries that will be increasingly competitive in this new electrotech revolution we're seeing across the world?

I think, with the greatest of respect for the question, we know the answer to get to 95%. This is, to me, one of the reasons it's important not just to focus on 2050 or the kinds of end solutions that may be in question 20 years from now. We know the answers for the 90%, and we just need to roll them out.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You talked about the benefits and the evolution of solar and wind energy, among other things. When we talk about electrification opportunities, how do solar and wind energy compare to nuclear energy, for example? I'm talking about new projects.

[Rachel Doran]

I think rightfully so. Most procurement across Canada is really focused on what can be done cost-effectively to increase the production in our grids. While we have some nuclear-based power as part of our non-emitting current electricity grid, when we're looking at these kinds of numbers about how wind and solar are coming in on a pure cost level—a cost of energy basis—we did studies in both Ontario and Alberta as early as 2023, finding in Canada, as in the rest of the world, that these are increasingly becoming the lowest-cost source of power. That's why, as battery costs come down, we're really seeing those come out ahead in the number of procurements in both Canada and globally as the lowest-cost way to produce power.

Nuclear energy does provide an important baseload already in Canada, but in terms of new projects has generally not been found to meet that same cost threshold. Things like SMRs are being tested in Canada, and nuclear has been foreseen by the International Energy Agency, as well as others, as providing some small part of the power we're going to need out to 2050. However, on a pure cost basis, they're really estimating how we would see renewables take over that global lion's share and use technologies like batteries to provide stable power.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Rumour has it that the clean electricity regulations may be scrapped. Can you talk about the importance of these regulations?

[Rachel Doran]

The clean electricity regulations have been an important market signal tool across Canada that have really encouraged utilities, provinces and others to consider what the lowest-cost and most effective pathways are to try to reduce emissions in the electricity sector. They don't get to zero under their current design, but they do provide that signal direction that really encourages starting from things like distributed energy resources, which have been proven to play a really important part in our grids going forward. We're going to be using things like the EVs plugged in our driveway to help power back to our homes and trying to come up with some of those more creative solutions.

That's one of the ways this regulation can help drive a grid that's going to look like the future and not like the past.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

If I understand correctly, you think it's important to keep these regulations.