Evidence of meeting #30 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was enforcement.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steve Sullivan  President, Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime
Steve Masnyk  Manager of Communications, Insurance Brokers Association of Canada
Robert Kimball  Chairman, Insurance Brokers Association of Canada
Peter Fredericks  Vice-President, Insurance Brokers Association of Canada
Clayton Pecknold  Co-Chair, Law Amendments Committee, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police
Krista Gray-Donald  Director of Research, Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime

10:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime

Steve Sullivan

I will just restate again that certainly we've heard anecdotal information from law enforcement that...my friend is correct: the misinterpretation of the legislation--because there is some room for interpretation--has hindered law enforcement.

Our position is that even if 99% of the ISPs cooperate and 1% don't, it's not good enough. If there's one child out there who's left behind, left to be abused, left to have their images used when we could be stopping it or trying to stop it, then we need to do more.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Thank you.

Mr. Peterson is next. He will be followed by Mr. Tilson. If any other members want to ask questions, just catch the eye of the clerk and he'll put your name down.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Ms. Gray-Donald, did I hear you say that by and large small ISPs refuse to cooperate with the police?

10:25 a.m.

Director of Research, Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime

Krista Gray-Donald

That is the information we have from anecdotal police reporting through investigations. By and large, it is open to interpretation. To clarify, they are more frequently cited as those that don't cooperate.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

By and large, it would connote to me 50% or more of non-cooperation.

10:25 a.m.

Director of Research, Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime

Krista Gray-Donald

I can't put a figure on it, so I would like to clarify and say that isn't it.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Are you asking for this power, that an ISP must provide personal information, just for crimes against children or for all types of police investigations?

10:30 a.m.

President, Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime

Steve Sullivan

Our focus here today is crimes against children. Having said that, I think it's appropriate that we look at other issues that are identified. Again, Bill C-74 speaks to the broader issue. Our issue to raise here today is the sexual exploitation of children. That's not to say there shouldn't be other issues, but that's the issue that concerns us the most at this time.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

But there are lots of crimes that are heinous.

February 13th, 2007 / 10:30 a.m.

President, Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime

Steve Sullivan

Absolutely.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

In some cases, for example, police will need a warrant if they're going to search a premise or get information. Are you saying they shouldn't have to get a warrant just if they're dealing with an ISP, or if they're dealing with anybody?

10:30 a.m.

President, Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime

Steve Sullivan

We're saying they shouldn't have to get a warrant to get a name and address of someone who's suspected of trading child pornography or distributing child pornography. They shouldn't have to get a warrant for that information. As my friend mentioned, it's not about the websites they visit, their e-mails; it's their name and their address.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Do you know if Bill C-74 limits it to child abuse, or is it all sorts of crime?

10:30 a.m.

President, Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime

Steve Sullivan

It's all sorts of crime.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you.

10:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Thank you, Mr. Peterson.

I call on Mr. Tilson now, and I'd like to thank Mr. Tilson for chairing the committee last week. Thank you very much.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Mr. Chairman, thank you.

Mr. Peterson has pretty well asked my question. I have to say I congratulate the police for the work they do on this issue, and your organization as well, Mr. Sullivan. I understand the frustrations that the police particularly have in making investigations because of the restrictions that are put against you, hindering your investigations. I understand that.

I'm going to zero in on a question that has been pretty well asked several times. It's the issue of there not being a warrant, the lack of requirement for a warrant. I'd like to raise the issue of where there have been false accusations, abuse of process, oversight, and maybe there are other examples. The question was asked whether you had a proposed amendment, and I understand it's a tricky thing. We need all the help we can get, quite frankly.

My question is to both Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Pecknold. If you're not going to have to have a warrant in restricted situations, should there be some threshold? Otherwise, and I'm not casting aspersions on anyone, there could be an abuse with this not requiring a warrant. I understand your frustrations, particularly the police, but it can be dangerous.

Mr. Pecknold.

10:30 a.m.

Co-Chair, Law Amendments Committee, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police

Clayton Pecknold

Thank you for the opportunity to respond to that. Perhaps I'll try to provide some clarity of our view on that.

Our view is that whenever information is of the type that attracts section 8 of the charter protection, the right to privacy protection, or the right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, the Supreme Court of Canada has clearly stated that the police require a warrant; they require prior judicial authorization. It gives guidance in Hunter v. Southam; it gives guidance on what type of information it is.

What we are talking about here is access to information that does not attract that threshold, so the threshold is built in. We don't require a warrant for information on customers' names and addresses. That threshold is not there. The courts have said we don't need a warrant to get that information.

This is not a case of people's bank records, how much money they earn, or what their sexual preferences are. We absolutely require warrants for those things and will continue to require them. Otherwise the information is not admissible in court, in any event. So we're under the supervision of the court, and those protections are built in. It's clearly not our position that in this bill or any other bill we should be given the authority to access information of that nature without a warrant. We don't believe that. It's just not the way the law is in Canada, and we accept that.

What we're talking about in this case, for example, is our ability to go to a bank or an ISP and ask whether so-and-so is a customer, and whether he has an account there, yes or no. Then we carry out the investigation. That's the type of information we're seeking to have released to us.

As to my friend's discussion about a positive obligation to disclose things with respect to child pornography, we haven't put our minds to that, but it's certainly an area that this committee may wish to consider--a positive obligation on ISPs--but that would be a private duty.

10:35 a.m.

President, Canadian Resource Centre for Victims of Crime

Steve Sullivan

I don't think Parliament intended for police to get a warrant when they passed this legislation. I think they put in the first clause “if you have a warrant”...in other words, if you have lawful authority. I don't think Parliament intended for that to mean a warrant. I think it was left sort of ambiguous, so it has been interpreted by some to suggest you need a warrant.

Again, as my friend suggested, you're really looking at someone's name and address, perhaps. You can get that off their licence plate. You can stop someone on the street and ask them to identify themselves. You don't need warrants for those things. So I think the protections are built in to the process now.

10:35 a.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

We have only a few more witnesses left in our hearings. Then we'll hear from the commissioner and the minister, and then we'll prepare a report.

I know you haven't prepared a proposed amendment, but it's an interesting issue. It would be interesting for our consideration if you could address that, if possible. If not, I'm sure we will consider it ourselves.

Thank you.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Thank you, Mr. Tilson.

Mr. Dhaliwal.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

My question or comment is to the insurance fellows here. We are hearing about this work product definition at almost every meeting, and we want to fix it once and for all, for all the industries.

IMS brought in a definition. Have you gone through that? Have you looked at the presentation they made to the committee earlier?

10:35 a.m.

Manager of Communications, Insurance Brokers Association of Canada

Steve Masnyk

We're not aware of any IMS definition.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

They brought in a definition.

We'll be getting into a challenge because small businesses have their own issues compared to bigger businesses. I wonder if you could come up with some suggestions and send them to us so we can fix it once and for all.

10:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

I wasn't here, but I believe they gave a recommended definition. Maybe you'd like to take a look at the evidence and offer your comments, since the definition of work product was point two of your three points, and whether you agree, disagree, or have some suggestions on how to change it.