Information & Ethics Committee on May 17th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

We're in the middle of discussing another motion. I don't think you can use a point of order to move a motion, so I can't recognize your motion at this time. If you want to seek my attention later or at another time, I can do that, but not on a point of order.

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Could I ask for unanimous consent to allow cameras to be brought in here?

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

I suppose we can ask.

Is there unanimous consent to allow journalists to bring their cameras into the room?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

There is no unanimous consent.

Here's where we are. We are discussing the amendment that Mr. Reid moved, to the fourth report. Mr. Tilson has the floor.

I want members to be very clear. We've had two hours of debate. I'm going to be very strict on repetition. If I hear repetition from anybody, I will stop the speaker immediately, bring them to order, and ask them to move to a new point. If they cannot, I will move to the next speaker.

We are on the amendment by Mr. Reid, and we are hearing Mr. Tilson.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As I indicated before we had our short recess, what got this all going was a report from an article in The Globe and Mail—at least, I believe it was—by Mr. Paul Koring that the amendment addresses. In it, he makes a number of very serious allegations. I want to proceed with this as soon as possible.

I assume members of the committee have seen this article, so I'm not going to read it. I've quoted one or two paragraphs of it. I'm not going to do anything further, other than to say that because of that fact—unless someone's going to disagree with me—that's where many of these allegations came forward. His name isn't on this report. The names that are on the report are people who are most relevant. I submit that I agree with the amendment because this individual should be heard before the other individuals, and after the Information Commissioner.

Mr. Chair, like the original motion, the report requests “that the Clerk of the Committee request from the Department of Foreign Affairs, a copy of the censored version of the report.” You've indicated to me that you have done that, and that you hoped it would be here today.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to go further than this amendment, and I'd like to make a subamendment to the amendment. What I'm suggesting goes after the word “report” in the final line of the fourth report, where it says, “that the Clerk of the Committee request from the Department of Foreign Affairs, a copy of the censored version of the report”. I'd like to propose a subamendment that has the following wording: “and that the Committee as it...”.

I'm adding on, sir. Are you following what I'm trying to do?

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

I'm not following, and I'll tell you why. The current subject matter is the subamendment.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Yes, and I'm moving an amendment to that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

Okay, but the subamendment ends with the words “decide to call”.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Yes, it does.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

I know you don't have this, but the version with the word “report” falls outside the words in the subamendment. You would in fact not be moving a subamendment, but rather an amendment to the fourth report. If you're moving an amendment to the fourth report, then it's out of order because we are debating the subamendment.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

No, sir, because I'm supporting what the amendment says. It may be because I don't have the complete document in front of me. I'm talking about the amendment. I thought the words “in the following order” followed the words “censored version of the report”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

No, they follow the word “appear”, in line 5 of the English version.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

If that's the case—

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

I didn't say you can't move an amendment. Once we're through with this—

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I misunderstood what you're saying, sir, so I apologize.

So after the word “report” in the subamendment, which is the main motion—

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

That's right, Mr. Tilson. There is no word “report” in the amendment.

Mr. Martin, on point of order.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, not to be difficult, but I thought we voted on the subamendment and it was defeated, and that the debate then reverted to the amendment. Am I mistaken?

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

I have been incorrectly saying subamendment on occasion. There is no subamendment. What we're talking about is the amendment. I'm trying to guide Mr. Tilson, because I think what he's trying to do is amend the fourth report. I think his amendment is outside the wording of the amendment. That's all I'm trying to say. I'm not saying he can't do it; I'm saying this is not the time to do it.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Mr. Chairman, perhaps I can tell you what I'm trying to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

Okay, and then we can see if we can work it out. Go ahead.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

What I'm trying to do is this. I'm supporting Mr. Reid's amendment. What I'm suggesting is that if he added to those words—and it may be I'm putting these in the wrong place—the words “that the Committee, as its first order of business, receive and consider the subject internal report from the Department of Foreign Affairs, and that the witnesses then appear”.

That's why I think it's important, because I'm referring to these witnesses, in that it's an amendment to Mr. Reid's amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

Could you read the wording again?

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'll read it, and if you agree with me, then we can discuss where we should put it: “that the Committee, as its first order of business, receive and consider the subject internal report from the Department of Foreign Affairs, and that the witnesses then appear”.

I was going to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that these words come after the word “report”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Tom Wappel]

If they come after the word “report”, they're outside the wording of the amendment and I would not be able to find your proposal in order. What I'm looking for is to see if there's some way I can logically place them within the amendment for you, so that they would become a subamendment of the amendment.