Evidence of meeting #5 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbyist.
A recording is available from Parliament.
September 18th, 2006 / 4:35 p.m.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether there's time for the registrar to talk about the proposed structure under Bill C-2 of this and other areas.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel
Well, he wants to finish his deck, and we do have one more questioner--actually, now I have two.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel
Okay. If the committee wishes, we're here till 5:30. If there's time we can go there.
By the way, on the interpretation bulletin, I presume, Mr. Bergen, that that is an interpretation of the registrar. If someone reading it doesn't like it, they don't follow it; if the registrar then enforces that interpretation bulletin on the person who hasn't followed it, that person would have recourse to a judicial review as to whether or not the registrar's interpretation was correct. Wouldn't that be the way it would go?
Counsel, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
Yes, I'd agree with you, Mr. Wappel. That's exactly the case.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I'm looking at page 12 in your deck where it talks about the registry information. Under every category it talks about lobbying methods. Does that information also include some detail? For instance, “lobbying methods” means taking people for dinner or taking people on trips?
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
It does. In fact, it goes right down to...that would be called informal lobbying. People can, if they wish, describe exactly what they're going to be doing, or even grassroots lobbying, even if you're just going to exhort people to contact someone.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Then when the six months are up and they provide you with documentation as to what they've done, are they required to also show the costs involved in those types of lobbying?
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
Not in our legislation. There are other pieces of legislation, in the United States, for example, where that idea has crept in, but no, it's not a requirement.
Liberal
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
It may, in the extreme, add something. If someone were spending $10 million on a given lobbying campaign--I'm just making these numbers up--that might be important public knowledge, but just to know how much lobbyists make....
I know that parliamentarians had this debate--
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
No, I'm not referring to how much the lobbyist makes, I'm talking about lobbying methods.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
Oh, how much money they've spent on a campaign or things like that.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
As I said, in the extreme, that might be of interest to the public. In the normal run of spending--a thousand dollars here, a thousand dollars there--I'm not sure it would be of interest. But I don't have an informed view on that, I must say.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay.
We have more than 300 members of Parliament. The ethics regulations require that members of Parliament, when they receive benefits, beyond the benefits that Mr. Peterson was referring to in terms of better informing us.... Let's say we are taken for dinner on a number of occasions, but those dinners are never quite $500. Let's say you take every member of Parliament to dinner. What if you take them for a trip as well, or golfing?
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
As we've just heard, now we're talking.
I think there would be some public unease knowing that this loophole exists. I personally think it should be a requirement that if money is expended on an actual lobbyist, that gets registered. But if money gets expended into grey areas to help people see the wisdom of a particular point of view, I think it's critical that these types of grey areas be addressed.
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
I can say that the Americans are much more seized with that notion than we are, and the amounts. Not every one of their legislatures, as I said, has exactly the same rules, but they are much more seized with how much money you are allowed to spend and the types of gifts while lobbying in particular. Parliament has not chosen to do that so far, but the act gets reviewed every five years.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Finally, to lobby it takes two parties. All of this looks at one side, or one party--the lobbyists. We're not looking at the people being lobbied--the government officials, or elected officials. Have you ever contemplated putting together suggestions about rules of engagement?
For instance, in my office we have rules whereby if someone wants to come and discuss an issue with me, someone has to be present and take minutes. For greater clarity and verification, it would not be an onerous task to submit, every six months, those types of reports to your offices from the offices of elected officials, informing them of the details of those meetings.
What do you think of those suggestions?
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
The current act is totally silent on the obligations of public office holders. When I speak to public office holders--and I've been to various deputy management teams--the first question after I make this presentation is almost always, “So what does this mean for us? What are our obligations? There's nothing in the act.”
What I explain to them...and I like your ideas on some ways to develop this. Again, I think the education mandate under Bill C-2 mandates the commissioner to develop those sorts of educational tools.
What I tell public servants is that this is for them; if they can't find any other reason to do it, it's a matter of risk management. Risk for the optics is one thing. Do you really want to be developing a proposal for your minister for six months, and then, just as you're about to make the announcement, somebody says that you've been dealing with an unregistered lobbyist, or with someone who's taken a contingency fee and hasn't declared it? Or you work with someone for three years to decide to give a company a repayable contribution, and then, just when you're at the point where you say, “This is a great company, and we're going to give them that contribution,” you find out that they've been dealing with an unregistered lobbyist and the company can't sign the contract with you; they can't say that they've been dealing with an unregistered lobbyist.
So I tell people that this is about risk management. I think a very important thing for us to do is to help, just as you're saying.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Good afternoon, Mr. Nelson. I have two questions for you, to make things clearer.
Did you say a few moments ago that lobbyists whose lobbying activities made up over 20% of their regular activities were required to register?
Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
Yes. This applies to lobbyists working for both commercial and non-commercial organizations.
