Evidence of meeting #5 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbyist.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Richard Rumas
Michael Nelson  Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
Pierre Ricard-Desjardins  Director of Operations, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
Bruce Bergen  Counsel, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists
Karen Shepherd  Director of Investigations, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

We have quorum for the purpose of conducting business, so I will call the meeting to order.

I'd like to welcome back all my colleagues.

To our guest for today, Mr. Michael Nelson, welcome to you and your officials.

Before we get to Mr. Nelson, as I explained to him off the record, we have just a small bit of business that we must conduct. There is a seminar being conducted next week, September 25 and September 26, a Monday and Tuesday, on the subject of access to information, which of course could not be more germane to this committee. During the summer we sent around notification asking whether any members were interested in attending. Six members expressed interest, so it clearly is something that some of the members wish to do.

The difficulty is that according to House rules, as the clerk advises me, anything that occurs off the Hill, whether it happens to be at the Chateau Laurier or at some hotel 50 feet away, has to be authorized by Parliament as travel. Accordingly, we would have to pass a motion today, which I would then take to the liaison committee tomorrow. If the liaison committee were to approve it, it would then have to be brought to the House leaders. A formal order of the House would have to be made before the tickets could be purchased for something that is taking place literally a week from today.

Our clerk has been on the job, which is no surprise, and he's obtained a registration price as if we were registering well in advance. There's also a promo that if you register three, you get the fourth free.

There would be nine people going--six members, the clerk, and our two researchers.

Who are the six members, Mr. Clerk?

3:45 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Richard Rumas

Mr. Stanton, Mr. Van Kesteren, Mr. Dhaliwal, Madam Lavallée, and I'm waiting for--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

And me.

3:45 p.m.

The Clerk

And you, Mr. Chair, of course.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Mr. Chairman, does it mean that we would not have a committee meeting on Monday if we go to this?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

That is correct. There will be no committee meeting on Monday if this is approved and if we travel, because at least half the committee will be at this seminar.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

I did not volunteer because I thought I had committee meetings. I could likely come and go from it. I have some stuff I have to do, but I could make room for it.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Are you interested in attending the seminar in full?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

I can't be there in full, I can tell you that right now.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

I'd hate to register you for full participation if you can't make it, but we could easily do the math if you wanted to add yourself in.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

No, I can't make it in full.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Okay.

Are there any other questions about what I've said?

What I'm looking for is a motion that the committee adopt a travel budget in the amount of $4,865 to cover the cost of registration for members and staff to attend a seminar on access to information in Ottawa on September 25 and 26, 2006.

The cost of $4,865 is the $689 registration fee times seven. We get two free tickets, so we have nine going.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON

Who does that get charged to?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

That gets charged to our budget.

It's been moved by Mr. Peterson.

Is there any discussion on the motion?

(Motion agreed to)

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Thank you very much. I'll deal with that tomorrow at the liaison committee.

We have with us today the registrar of lobbyists, Mr. Michael Nelson.

Mr. Nelson, I see there are three people here; I hope you will introduce them.

Committee members, because of the nature of Mr. Nelson's presentation--it's somewhat technical--we're going to allow him to make a presentation that will be interrupted by questions at certain times. So we'll be a little less formal than the twelve minutes that we normally allow for the witness, because we'll break and give committee members an opportunity to ask questions and then proceed again. If that doesn't work, we can be more flexible. Hopefully that will give Mr. Nelson an opportunity to discuss the things that he thinks are technical.

Without further ado, welcome, Mr. Nelson, and please introduce the people you have with you.

September 18th, 2006 / 3:45 p.m.

Michael Nelson Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am extremely happy to be here today. These meetings are very important to me. I am accompanied today by our counsel, Bruce Bergen, by Karen Shepherd, Director of Investigations, as well as by Pierre Ricard-Desjardins, Director of Operations.

I think it was interesting to hear the bit of discussion about a seminar. We're going to try to whip very quickly through this deck that we have, but for an act that is relatively simple in its intent, it's a little tricky to work your way through. Particularly if you are going to be asking some questions about what Bill C-2 might mean for this, as I've been advised you might, it's very important to budget a bit of your time to do this. So I commend the committee for the learning that needs to go on, and I apologize to those members of the committee who may have heard some of this before and possibly know more than I do about the act.

What is a senior public servant without a deck? So we have a deck to go through, and I'll start on page 3.

Why do lobbying laws exist? Of course we aren't the only jurisdiction that has lobbying laws, and I'll say a little bit about that in a second. The pretty simple reason they exist and they're being talked about in all jurisdictions, or in most jurisdictions, is to address the concern that some people have more access to government decision-makers and thus to influence government decision than other people have, and they do this by virtue of hiring people either because of who they know or what they know about government. This ends up being a concern in democracies, and so lobbying laws become enacted, I believe, to contribute to confidence in the integrity of government decision-making. This isn't about just creating a registry with names on it; this is about the outcome of confidence in government decision-making.

As I mentioned, there are laws in many jurisdictions. Most jurisdictions consider lobbying law to be part of a family of ethics legislation, so some folks in some jurisdictions may have my responsibilities, and they may also be responsible for election law, election financing. Here in Canada at the federal level currently, the Parliament has chosen to make this just a single lobbying registration function.

The emphasis in most legislation in various jurisdictions ends up being on transparency rather than regulation in most cases, especially at the beginning, and then as the legislation matures, usually the disclosure gets more intense and some regulation starts to move in. This is what we're seeing through BillC-2, I believe. I know the OECD is studying lobbying law. The United States have a myriad of different legislation at the federal level and the state level. I saw something from New York City the other day. Five provinces in Canada have lobbying legislation: British Columbia; Ontario; Nova Scotia; Newfoundland and Labrador; and Quebec, which is the closest to the legislative powers that we have here at the federal level. The latest trend is that you're hearing about municipal registries. In fact, the City of Toronto asked me to go down, which I did earlier this summer, and talk to them about our federal registry, because they've just enacted their own regulations for the City of Toronto, and I know a couple of other cities are talking about it. I would point out that in Quebec the provincial legislation covers municipal lobbying as well, so my colleague Pierre-André Côté has quite a lot on his hands.

As for the history, very quickly, the Lobbying Act has been around for about 17 years. In some major initiatives in 1996 there was the introduction of the lobbyists code of conduct, which Karen will speak to briefly in a second. The most recent amendments to the act came into force only last summer, with tremendous effect actually in terms of the number of registrations, and now we see that Bill C-2, the Federal Accountability Act, has major amendments proposed to the Lobbyists Registration Act.

The Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists has been around, of course, as long as the registry. In 1994 the Ethics Counsellor was made responsible for the registry as well as being Ethics Counsellor. In 2004 Parliament decided to split that function, creating the office of Mr. Shapiro--Mr. Bernard Shapiro was the Ethics Commissioner--and the residual responsibilities were given to an ADM at Industry Canada, which Mr. Tilson knows because he asked me that question the very first time I appeared. I was that ADM, and the question was very appropriately, “How can you be an ADM and also be the registrar of lobbyists?” So not long after, with the workload increasing and, I would like to say, with the encouragement of the members of that committee at the time, the Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists became a stand-alone function within Industry Canada at that time and my office was moved. Physically we moved out, and I became the registrar of lobbyists on a full-time basis and was no longer the assistant deputy minister.

Then in February 2006 when there were some machinery moves around the creation of the cabinet of Prime Minister Harper, one move was made that didn't get a lot of attention but was certainly very important for us and, I think, for the independence of the portfolio. As you can do in the machinery of government at the federal level, my office was made a department--all 20 of us--for the purposes of the Federal Accountability Act. I was made the deputy head of that office, and we were moved to the portfolio of the President of the Treasury Board.

I would say the registrar of lobbyists is a unique creation within government. It's a public servant--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Excuse me, please. We have a question, if that's all right.

3:50 p.m.

Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists

Michael Nelson

Absolutely.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Mr. Tilson.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Nelson, I appreciate the issue you raised about Industry Canada. Of course, the proposal of Bill C-2 is that ultimately when that bill becomes law--if it becomes law, and I assume it will--there will be an independent commissioner of lobbying. My understanding now, and I think you alluded to it, is that your office is really responsible to the Treasury Board. I'd like you to clarify whether that is the case, and if it is the case, I assume that would continue until this new legislation takes place.

My question is, are you put in the same predicament as you were with Industry Canada? There are probably more lobbyists involved in Industry Canada than there are with the Treasury Board, but could you elaborate on that issue, because to me it's the same situation, perhaps not quite as exaggerated, but the same situation.

3:50 p.m.

Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists

Michael Nelson

It is the same situation; that's exactly the way to put it. It is not the same machinery-type situation, because I'm no longer part of anyone's management team. I'm my own department, so I don't sit on anyone's management team. Here's the way it's working--

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Except you answer to the President of the Treasury Board.

3:50 p.m.

Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists

Michael Nelson

Here's the way it's working now and the reason it can work, but the reason I still think it's critically important that an independent commissioner of lobbying be created. Because of the way the Financial Administration Act works, in order for me to have financial delegations to sign contracts and things and like that, a minister needs to sign a delegation instrument, and as well, if I'm going to make a presentation or submission to Treasury Board, a minister needs to do that.

So with respect to the spending of money, and not the way I spend money but my ability to legally sign sections 34, 32, etc., a minister--and it was Minister Baird--signed off. The only question Minister Baird's staff asked--because I have never met Minister Baird, I've never met the man--with respect to my responsibilities as registrar of lobbyists.... Neither he nor his staff have ever asked me anything about what I do, why I do it, any investigation. So that doesn't mean I don't believe you still need the machinery to make the optics completely correct, but I'm being treated honourably by the current administration, as I was by the last administration.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

I understand that, and you've clarified what I was wanting. To me, it's a similar situation. If there are any lobbyists toward Treasury Board--and as I said, I doubt that there are as many as there are with Industry Canada, but there may be some--you do have a conflict. But I also understand that this is on an interim basis until this legislation is passed. Hopefully it will be passed soon.

3:55 p.m.

Registrar of Lobbyists, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists

Michael Nelson

Absolutely.