Evidence of meeting #6 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-2.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director, Corporate Affairs, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
We spent $112,000 outside our office, which is very reasonable.
As I said, the major amount was for the House of Commons IT support services to the office, which was $300,000-plus.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Mr. Chairman, what's the average percentage increase for salaries?
Director, Corporate Affairs, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
The economic increase is 2.5%.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Mr. Chairman, this is with respect to Bill C-2.
You say on page 16 of your report:
The expanded requirements of Bill C-2 means that the Office will need to acquire additional human resources, particularly in areas such as legal services for interpretation and compliance with a legislated regime, and for the conduct of inquiries. A regime will also have to be developed and administered to implement and apply the new administrative penalties process.
Dr. Shapiro, or your staff, can you give us an estimate as to what you anticipate that increased cost might be?
Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
It's very, very difficult to know, and I feel that we've been dancing on eggs, so to speak. We don't want to act as if we know what the law is going to be when we're not entirely sure.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
You're quite right, because the law may not become law. But you've obviously anticipated this or you wouldn't have made that statement.
Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
I think it would probably be something in the area of $2 million to $3 million, because there are huge new data requirements, huge new reporting requirements, huge increases in the public registry. There are all these things that are indicated in law, many of which I think I'm quite in favour of.
September 20th, 2006 / 4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
That's right. It also depends on whether the office includes the Senate, and there are all those other.... When I say that, it's assuming the full law passes more or less as it is.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Can you give us any more details as to how you expect the new office will be run as a result of C-2?
Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Could you be a bit more clear?
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
To make the statement that you did in your report, you're obviously anticipating something. With all due respect, probably that's your obligation, because if the bill passed, all of a sudden Parliament is going to require you to perform magic. You must have some concept as to the new process that you'll be obliged to follow. I assume you've philosophized as to where you think the commission should go.
Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
Without using the term “philosophized”, I certainly have thought about how to organize in order to deal with the new legislation. My sense of it is that it doesn't require so much a change in process. I think many of our processes will stay the same; there will just be a lot more of them. Assuming the law passes as it is, the data requirements will be much larger. We'll have to keep more records about more things, and the registry will have to expand to include much more information than is currently the case.
We will need expanded legal services inside the office. Once we're interpreting legislation, we have to be careful, and we've got to make sure we proceed in an appropriate way in each and every case. We need expanded IT services and expanded legal services. It seems likely, although we can't be sure, that we'll need expanded services for investigations, since the law makes it somewhat easier for people who have an issue they wish to be investigated to approach the commission through an MP or a member of the Senate. There are all these things that will happen. Our estimate is that it will take a certain increase in human resources--we're not sure how many--which depends on a lot of other things. The cost will be roughly $2 million to $3 million on an ongoing basis.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel
Mr. Shapiro, just following up on Mr. Tilson's questions, could I ask you to turn to appendix I, just so that I understand how you've done appendix I. This is on page 18 of your report in the English version.
Am I reading it correctly that salaries and employee benefits for the year ended March 31, 2006, were $3.3 million? Is that correct?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel
You have 34 employees. That's an average salary of approximately $100,000 for each one of your employees. I find that startling, and I'd appreciate a comment on that. I can't believe that everybody is earning $100,000, which means a lot of people are earning more than $100,000 to average it at $100,000.
Secondly, according to your report, which Mr. Tilson was talking about, specifically page 13, 64.5% of your budget went to salaries. I'm wondering if you've compared that with other commissioners, like the Information Commissioner or the Privacy Commissioner, and whether or not their budgets for their FTEs are in the same range of 64.5% of the entire budget going to salaries.
Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
I have not made the comparison, so I can't respond to that question, although I'd be glad to get back to you on it.
Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
I'm wondering if Ms. Robinson-Dalpé might comment on the salary question.
Director, Corporate Affairs, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
Basically, the organizational structure states that we have 34 employees, but we also have some people who are seconded within the office. They are not actually accounted for in the structure itself, but they are working within the office. There are three of those, plus there are student salaries as well that are included there. There's also the employee benefits plan that is covered there. Around $580,000 in benefits for the employees is covered there. That's how we come up to that number.
There are also accrued expenditures for accumulated leave; there's unused overtime and accumulated leave for the employees who are covered--
Director, Corporate Affairs, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
Unpaid overtime that has to be paid. Staff do overtime. If they accumulate time off and at the end of the fiscal year they don't have time to use it, then we have to pay it out.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel
I'm not going to take the time of the committee, but should the committee decide to examine your estimates, I would really appreciate it if you would be ready for some hard questions on 34 employees and $3.4 million in salaries.
Mr. Peterson.
Liberal
Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON
I have just two questions. From your presentation, Dr. Shapiro, on page 5, point 2, your duties include taking requests from a member of the public with respect to the conduct of a public office holder, but that request must be made through a parliamentarian.