Evidence of meeting #27 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inquiry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Well, Mr. Chairman, there may be something that precludes the commissioner from speaking about this case, but there's absolutely nothing that precludes me from speaking about this case.
I hope you have stopped the clock for all of these shenanigans.
I have the right to talk about this case, and I intend to talk about this case. There's nothing in any legislation that precludes me from talking about this case. So I'd like to continue.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
I will remind you, Mr. Tilson, that when this matter came up twice before during previous hearings, I did make rulings with regard to members' rights, that allegations against members are not grounds for saying they're in a conflict of interest. I said so simply because everybody could have a lawsuit posed against them at any time and the entire committee would be disqualified from participating in these hearings. Allegations are one thing—
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
I'm not asking you to rule on this particular matter—
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
This has nothing to do with what you're talking about.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Well, I don't need an explanation. I have every right to talk about it.
You're interrupting my presentation.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Order, please.
The clock is not going, Mr. Tilson. You'll have your time. Okay?
I just want to be sure. I think the committee should be aware of a little bit of history, and let's be careful in how we deal with these things. I don't want to—
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Well, Mr. Chairman, you can give your interpretation—
Conservative
Conservative
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Exactly.
And the wink over there, is that another one of your...?
Anyway, Ms. Dawson, I really appreciate your thoughts. You did give some indication earlier about the facility you would have to discuss anything. I think you were quite clear on that, so I have no concern about your receiving these questions.
But with regard to members' rights, I simply want everybody who happens to be listening to this to understand that there has been a matter come up with regard to an allegation. It has been ruled on by the committee, and the committee upheld the ruling of the chair, that in that particular case the member, in fact, was not in a position of conflict of interest and should not be excluded from participating in our hearings.
Mr. Tilson, you've only used 42 seconds of your five minutes. Carry on.
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Madam Commissioner, the committee, as you know, proceeded with what is known as the Mulroney-Schreiber hearings, and at the beginning of the hearings I raised a point of order. I suggested that Mr. Thibault should recuse himself because the former Prime Minister had instituted a lawsuit of substantial amount against him, and because of that I felt he had a conflict of interest.
What the chair has related to you is true, and he.... Probably no one on this committee has the jurisdiction to tell Mr. Thibault to recuse himself. You may be the only one who has the right to suggest that, which is why on November 27 I wrote to you requesting an inquiry.
I did that because Mr. Thibault appeared to have the lead with respect to the Liberal caucus. He clearly appeared to have some influence with respect to the opposition. He participated in debates. He voted on motions. He asked questions. He was even able to cross-examine Mr. Mulroney during the hearings. He even asked questions in the House and still does to this day. This week he asked a question.
The whole purpose of my request was that I thought it was inappropriate that Mr. Thibault continue being on this committee.
You then communicated with me on January 10, indicating that you felt an inquiry was warranted. I might add that you were a tad late, but that's all right. It was the Christmas season and I accept that.
I then had a very strange telephone call from one of your investigators on January 21, who said, “We can't proceed without the statement of claim”. I thought that was very strange because he's the investigator and I'm the complainant. However, I happened to have a copy of the statement of claim, and I sent it to him. I sent it to him by e-mail, fax, and courier on January 24.
Then there was a very strange thing that happened on February 5. I had a letter addressed to Mr. Thibault, and it came to my office. We opened it because we assumed it was for me, but it wasn't for me. It was for Mr. Thibault from you. I did read the letter, and we called you, and of course it shouldn't have been sent to my office. It should have been sent to Mr. Thibault, so we duly sent it back.
I then telephoned. I won't give the names of your investigators, but I called one of your investigators—and I may be using the wrong terminology—saying, “You know, the hearings are over. We're now about to get into the report stage. My whole purpose of going on this thing was to ask for your assistance as to whether or not Mr. Thibault should participate in these hearings”, and I was going to be very upset if you waited until after the report was made. This person said, “Oh, yes. It's going to happen.”
Then the report to the House with respect to the chair was made on April 2, and still nothing. It's about four and a half months that this has proceeded.
I have three questions for you. In subsection 27(7), the words “due dispatch” are used. I'd like to know what you interpret the words “due dispatch” to mean.
Secondly, how long should an inquiry of this nature take?
And finally, when are you going to give your report on this matter?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Unfortunately, Mr. Tilson has used up all his five minutes, but I will give you an opportunity to make some brief response.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Well, as I said—
