Evidence of meeting #36 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was recommendations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Denis Kratchanov  Director General, Counsel, Information Law and Privacy Section, Department of Justice
Carolyn Kobernick  Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Law Sector, Department of Justice

May 27th, 2008 / 3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I call the meeting to order.

Good afternoon, colleagues. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), study of the Privacy Act reform, we have witnesses today. We're very pleased to have with us the Honourable Rob Nicholson, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. He will be able to be with us for approximately one hour, so our questions for the minister should be concentrated in that period. Following the minister's departure, his colleagues from the Department of Justice will be able to remain with us to carry on with our discussion.

Having said that, welcome, Minister. I appreciate your taking the time. If you would like, please introduce your colleagues, and I assume you have a brief opening statement for us as well.

3:35 p.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Thank you very much.

I am very pleased to be joined from the Department of Justice by Joan Remsu and Carolyn Kobernick, who may have appeared before you on occasion here—I'm not sure—and Denis Kratchanov. I'm very pleased to have him join me.

And you're quite correct that I do have a few opening comments. Again, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to make some comments about the Privacy Act, and particularly your study of that, among other things. Perhaps you will concentrate on the ten recommendations made by the Privacy Commissioner that were suggested to you. I'll be very interested to hear your comments.

I have a few opening remarks. I'll give you a brief overview of the federal privacy landscape and then follow that with some general comments on the commissioner's key proposals.

The privacy protections Canadians enjoy flow from a number of sources at the federal level. To take a macro view, I've divided the landscape into the public sector and the private sector.

In the public sector, the private protection regime is a complex legislative puzzle. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, as you may have guessed, is a part of that puzzle. Although the term “privacy” is not explicitly mentioned in the charter, you're probably aware that the Supreme Court of Canada has found that privacy is a core constitutional value in its interpretations of sections 7 and 8. In particular, section 8 has been found to protect against unwarranted government interference with an individual's reasonable expectation of privacy.

Another important piece of this puzzle, of course, is the Privacy Act, which, since the enactment of the Federal Accountability Act, applies now to 250 government entities. The Privacy Act describes a legal floor for privacy protection in the federal public sector, below which government institutions cannot go. This means the federal departments are entirely free to impose upon themselves a standard of privacy protection that is in fact higher than that set out in the Privacy Act.

Indeed this is what many departments have done, which brings me to the next important piece of the public privacy protection, and that's the individual departmental statutes. These more specific statutes outline privacy-related legal obligations for their respective departments. Some examples of these are, of course, very well known. The Income Tax Act is a good example of that, as is the Statistics Act. Both these statutes contain strict controls, including punishments, on what can be done with taxpayer information and personal information gathered for statistical purposes.

For example, everyone employed under the Statistics Act must, before they begin their duty, swear an oath that they will not disclose, without due authority, anything that comes to their knowledge by reason of their employment. It is a criminal offence to deliberately violate that oath. Similarly, the Income Tax Act stringently controls the collection, use, and disclosure of taxpayer information. Furthermore, taxpayer information may only be disclosed as set out in the Income Tax Act, and this disclosure regime takes precedence over the more general disclosure regime in the Privacy Act. The Income Tax Act also contains offences for unauthorized disclosure of taxpayer information, and that is as it should be.

The Privacy Act allows for these strict controls, and they are absolutely necessary to maintain people's willingness to provide highly sensitive personal information to the Canada Revenue Agency and to Statistics Canada. In addition, in the same area there are a number of departments that have their own privacy codes. Human Resources and Social Development is an example of one such department.

Now let me move to private sector privacy protection and the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act. All of us refer to it, of course, as PIPEDA. As your committee has completed the five-year review of PIPEDA, and because this legislation falls under the purview of my colleague, the Minister of Industry, I will spare you some of its technical details. Essentially, though, PIPEDA is the source of privacy protection in the commercial private sector that is within the federal sphere of control. It controls how companies collect, use, and disclose personal information in the course of commercial activities. PIPEDA contains ten principles of privacy protection, which include accountability, limiting collection, accuracy, and safeguards.

Now that I've identified the federal privacy protection regime for both the public and the private sector, I would like to make some general comments in relation to the commissioner's Privacy Act reform proposals.

Before I begin, I must note that my officials have been closely following the testimony of the witnesses you have heard up to this point. Specifically, we are fully aware of the Privacy Commissioner's extensive 2006 reform proposals. We also appreciate that the Privacy Commissioner has tried to make privacy reform more manageable by presenting to you something known as her top ten quick fixes.

I understand this is why your committee is focusing on the Privacy Commissioner's ten fixes and has invited witnesses to speak to these.

First, several of the commissioner's recommendations are clearly based on her view that the Privacy Act and PIPEDA should be more alike. I think it's fair to say that the commissioner believes that a number of amendments to the Privacy Act should be imported from PIPEDA. I would suggest to you, though, that there are important differences between the federal public sphere and the federal private sector. These include differences in how entities are held accountable for their actions in relation to privacy and differences in how business is conducted. I would encourage you to keep these differences in mind when you're studying the commissioner's recommendations that are inspired by PIPEDA.

A few of the commissioner's proposed reforms also seem to be inspired by provincial access to information and privacy legislation. I would suggest to you that the provincial sphere of responsibility is different from the federal one. This seems obvious, but I think it is worth noting nonetheless. For example, provinces do not have the primary responsibility for national security, nor do provinces have the primary responsibility for conducting and furthering international relations for the country as a whole. Accordingly, when you are examining the commissioner's proposals that fall into this category, you may wish to ask yourselves whether the difference between the federal and the provincial sphere comes into play.

On another note, it's important to point out that some of the commissioner's proposals could have fairly significant cost implications. I don't mean to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that a proposal should be disqualified, so to speak, simply because it would have a cost implication; however, I think in any examination of any proposals, that is of course a consideration.

Finally, Mr. Chairman, in several instances the commissioner proposes to codify policy or enshrine current policy in law. One of the advantages of policy over law is flexibility; that is, it is undoubtedly easier to change a policy to reflect the current situation than it is to amend a law to do the same thing. At the same time, I recognize that people tend to think a law carries more weight than policy. But when you're considering the commissioner's proposals that fall into this category, I trust you will examine this balancing act between the flexibility of policy and the force of law.

Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for allowing me to make some initial comments. In conjunction with the officials who are here today, I am prepared to answer any questions you have.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Just to start off, as you know, we've been faced with this challenge, which is that we have two pieces of legislation, the Access to Information Act and the Privacy Act, both of which have not been changed in 25 years. That causes us some concern--first of all, that a mandatory review has not been built into that legislation. The situation is clear from all concerned that there are changes that should have been made and must be made in anticipation of other things coming.

I'm wondering, with this general assessment, if that's your concurrence, whether or not you as the minister and the department responsible have given some thought as to how we get out of the problems we are in now and what commitments are there to make sure that once we get things fixed up, we in fact will have legislation that is responsive to the realities of the day.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

The challenge you are facing, or articulating, quite frankly, is the challenge I have with all the legislation for which I'm responsible. You will remember, of course, that in the Tackling Violent Crime Act, for instance, we raised the age of consent for sexual activity from 14 to 16 years of age. This comes from 1892, and what I'm faced with many times in the Criminal Code is not just that it was composed in 1892, but that for the most part it was adopted from English Criminal Code statutes that go back far beyond that.

So I appreciate your challenge and the challenge you have with this legislation. I certainly look forward to any recommendations you make with respect to the Privacy Act and any recommendations you make with respect to this or indeed any other legislation.

You put your finger on it that we try to look at these on a regular basis, and we try to update them to make them as responsive as possible. That's the challenge we have. As I say, sometimes we're even changing things that are from the 19th century, never mind the 20th century.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you, Minister.

In the first round I have Mr. Dhaliwal, Madame Lavallée, Mr. Martin, and Mr. Hiebert.

We'll have Mr. Dhaliwal, please.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Honourable Mr. Nicholson, I would like to welcome you and your associates to the committee. Thank you for appearing.

Some of the witnesses at the proceedings of this committee have said that the Privacy Act fails to even meet basic needs when it comes to privacy protection. First of all, I would like to ask if you agree with that statement.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Actually, I don't, and I hope you give them some push-back. We can be very proud of the regime that has been put in place.

I remember when the first Privacy Act of this type was introduced, in about 1983. I thought then, and I continue to think, that Canada takes a leading role when it comes to protecting its citizens on a whole host of levels. Yes, the legislation is 25 years of age, but you should point out to them that if you take a list of the countries of the world and for each one see what they do, and in many cases what they don't do in terms of protecting privacy, those individuals can be very proud of what we're doing.

That doesn't mean that on this or indeed on any other issue we can't continue to improve, and that is the challenge we have as legislators. Indeed, it's the challenge you have with this particular piece of legislation.

You're looking at it very carefully. Of course, I will be very interested to see what recommendations you make to the government.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

You also mentioned in your presentation today that the Privacy Commissioner has recommended two quick solutions to the Privacy Act. You said there is going to be a significant cost attached to these particular recommendations. Could you speak about the implementation, though? Are they feasible, and if we have to go ahead, how long would it take?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It's very challenging. One of the suggestions would expand the role of the Federal Court to allow complaints under the Privacy Act. There would be an award of damages against offending institutions, presumably government. I'll be very interested to hear what you have to say about it, quite frankly, and I suppose you might want to have a look at that in conjunction with recommendation number 6, which would give power to the Privacy Commissioner to rule out some complaints that may not be in the public interest or that she thinks are vexatious or frivolous. To me, that is a bit of a challenge. You might have an issue that is of extreme importance to one particular individual, but it may have very few public policy ramifications. I'll be interested in hearing what you have to say on that one.

On the other hand, in recommendation number 2, you're giving a right to appeal to the Federal Court. It seems to me there has to be some squaring of that box. I don't know how you can dismiss some of them and then say there should always be a right to appeal to the Federal Court. Again, I'm very interested in what has been recommended, but I'll be very interested to hear what you have to say.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

What about the cost? Have you determined that? You said there would be significant costs.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It's hard to say. I'll gave you one example. If there is an automatic right of appeal to the Federal Court, there will certainly be court costs involved. And it depends on whether you expand the role and to what extent you recommend expanding the role of the Privacy Commissioner. Most of these things cost money. Any time you expand the role of any individual, it requires resources. I'll see when the recommendations are made.

What I indicated to you in my opening remarks was to just keep that in mind. These things aren't without costs, and our courts are very busy, for instance. There would be a cost, of course. But it may be your recommendation to allow these appeals to the Federal Court.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

You have mentioned the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. This is a very important document, when I look at myself, first, and at Canadians. We put charter issues on one side, but on the other side we look at the security of this country.

Does the current Privacy Act unduly limit the RCMP or CSIS in conducting their work?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I think the Privacy Act works, and I think it works in conjunction with the responsibilities of the federal government. I indicated the charter as including a new test in terms of what people's rights are vis-à-vis their government or with respect to their own personal information. I think these are all part of it.

We always struggle, of course, with that balance to protect national security and the privacy interests of an individual. I think Canada generally gets it right in trying to balance those. But that's the challenge we have, and we'll have it in the future as well.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

What about the new communication technology? We should be updating that act, probably every five years or every two or three years, depending on the new technologies coming out. Do you have any comments on that?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

It's a challenge we have all the time, Mr. Dhaliwal.

I remember in the early 1990s, departmental officials--I was a parliamentary secretary at that time--pointing out to me that technology had completely overtaken society in the area of child pornography. While it was a crime under the Canadian Criminal Code in 1990 to produce child pornography, it was also a crime to sell child pornography. But there was a whole other area that was developing because of changes in technologies: people who possessed child pornography on their computers neither made it nor was there any money being transferred between individuals. There was a huge gap, and technology created it.

I'll give you another example: identity theft. Again, we try to fill in these gaps. As I said, I was in Montreal when I made the announcement that we would be bringing forward legislation in the area of identity theft. A reporter said to me, “Is this your attempt to stay ahead of the bad guys?” I said, “Look, I just want to catch up with the bad guys.” We have to have legislation just to hold the line on these things, because the technology is changing very, very quickly.

It's a good point you're making. It's the challenge we have, not just with the legislation you're studying, but it's a challenge we have right across the board.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Madame Lavallée.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Good afternoon, minister. You cannot imagine how pleased I am that you are finally appearing before the committee. As I am sure you know, we have invited you to come several times.

You said you would be pleased to hear about other legislation. I am going to be discussing the Access to Information Act, and I will touch on the Privacy Act quickly.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I think the topic before us today is privacy, not access to information legislation.

I know this has been a great concern of Madame Lavallée's, but I think this is an inappropriate time. We're here to talk about the review of the privacy legislation and not any proposed legislation with respect to access to information.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Your point is relevant.

Madame, you may understand that the member has indicated your intervention does not appear to be directly relevant to the matter before the committee. If you can somehow steer your commentary to satisfy the agenda--

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

I disagree with your interpretation, Mr. Chairman. The minister just said that he would be pleased to discuss any other legislation with regard to the Privacy Act. As we know, there is the privacy component and the access to information component. The two go together. He is the minister responsible for both pieces of legislation. If he is a responsible minister—and I am sure he is—he will be happy to answer my question.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

We don't have a lot of time to debate this matter further.

Madame Lavallée, I would encourage you to use your time the best you can to the benefit of the committee with regard to the matter that's before it. Please carry on. You still have six and a half minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

The minister will decide whether he wishes to answer my question. I am sure he is a big boy.

We asked you to appear before the committee on a number of occasions, Minister. In December 2005, the committee asked the then minister of justice to amend the Access to Information Act and accepted the bill put forward by the Access to Information Commissioner at that time so as to—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON

A point of order. It's as if I didn't make a point of order the last time and you didn't make a ruling. It's as if there was a void in the hearings. I don't think there was. I seem to recall making a point of order and you made a ruling that access to information isn't on the agenda for today. And here we go, continuing.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

The chair of any committee, and even the Speaker of the House, tries to give a member some latitude and encourages him or her to get back to the business to satisfy the House's concern. I take your point. Clearly, with regard to the overall administration of legislation, there are obviously some common elements.

Madam Lavallée, the member has now twice raised his point of order, and I encourage you to keep to the order of the business this committee has before it. Maybe you'd like to ask a quick question to the minister and then reconsider your remaining questions. Okay?

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

My questions are already thought out, Mr. Chairman. I would just like to comment on your decision. I find it very ironic that we are unable to ask the minister responsible for access to information any questions in order to get clarifications on this.

Mr. Tilson, allow me to make some comments to the chair. You made your remarks. I respected you, please respect my comments.

I would like to make this comment, Mr. Chairman, but I will ask the Minister a question about his availability.

We asked you to appear before the committee on a number of occasions, minister. At one point, we even had to invite in all of your deputy ministers and your senior officials to ensure you would come. It was only then that you agreed to come and see us, with the proviso that you would be coming six months later. In the end, because of the way things worked out, you never came before the committee. Now that we are discussing privacy and the obsessive culture of secrecy, you agree to come at our first invitation, but the purpose of access to information is to discuss the public's right to know.

Are you behaving in this way because your government has no intention of being transparent?