Evidence of meeting #44 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
If I had a choice, I would have preferred to have it way before or sometime after, not on the eve of the civil case.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
But it was a fortuitous coincidence that it was the eve before.
You did find that fortuitous.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Yes, absolutely. Again, we're running two separate, distinct operations, and we don't share information between the two entities.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Thank you, Mr. Poilievre.
Just in regard to that, Mr. Mayrand, who is responsible for determining the date that warrant was executed? Who made the decision?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
It was the commissioner on application to the judge.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
He does not need my authorization. He needs a judge's authorization, which he got.
Liberal
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Thank you, Chair.
I'd like to get us back to the issue at hand, which is the regional media buy, or the plan to, and we believe to circumvent the spending limits of the Elections Act by this regional media buy. What I'd like to focus on is your statement that in assessing the reimbursement of election campaign expenses, you look at the fair market value or the commercial value of what was purchased.
To the Conservative candidate who ran in my riding of Winnipeg Centre, the Conservative Party sent $10,800, and she returned $10,800 to purchase advertising. It was roughly 30% of her total campaign, this one regional advertising buy.
But there's another example I'd like you to comment on. In the Toronto riding of Trinity--Spadina, the candidate spent $50,000 on a regional advertising buy. In the research you did, is that a reasonable commercial price for advertising for one electoral district of Trinity--Spadina or Winnipeg Centre? Did that strike you as unusual in your evaluation of the real commercial value of an advertising buy?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I am sorry, Mr. Chair, but I cannot comment on the specific cases that are either before the Federal Court or are the subject of the investigation by the commissioner.
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Well, let's view them as hypothetical. You gave us a hypothetical example about lawn signs--if there had been $10,000 worth of lawn signs. You must have done similar research as to what advertising costs in order to determine whether that is a reasonable, fair market value or if it seems excessive for a single electoral district. Did that research take place?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
That's what the auditors will consider when they examine the claim: was it reasonably incurred?
NDP
Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB
Without looking at Winnipeg Centre or Trinity—Spadina, do you know what their research told them would be a reasonable amount for a media buy for that one electoral district?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
The short answer is no, at this point in time. I can't provide you with that information.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
Mr. Chairman, I want to give Mr. Mayrand an opportunity to repeat in French what he just said in English. First, earlier he was given the opportunity to clear up certain ambiguities regarding the Conservatives' attacks, particularly regarding a leak. He was convinced that, if there was one, it did not come from his office.
Second, apart from the Conservative Party, no other party meets all these factors.
The third point, that is to say time chosen for the search, is very important. If I understand correctly, the Commissioner and you did not agree about the selected time. Since you were responsible for the civil aspect and he for the criminal or penal aspect, you thought that the timing of the search at the Conservatives' offices, the day before the court depositions in the civil case, was a singularly poor choice.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
You can't say there was any disagreement. The Commissioner has some responsibilities and decisions to make. When he informed me that he was preparing—the decision was already made—to take the steps he was contemplating, I was surprised and disappointed to see that that operation would be conducted the day before the Federal Court hearings.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
No, he simply told me that his investigation had reached that point. He informed me; it was a bit of a heads up, if I may say that.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
We understand the expression, but did he show some sensitivity? That's entirely a matter of perception. How was it that cameras were there? Is it true that other parties did the same thing? Why conduct the search the day before..? Even though you operate in a different area of jurisdiction, did he seem to understand that could cause a problem of perception of the institution?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I wouldn't say he was insensitive. However, he had an investigation to conduct. It should not be forgotten that that investigation had already been going on for a year and that, at that point in the investigation, following a number of months of work, he was at the stage of obtaining a search warrant.
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
You often came back to that in your evidence today. You have emphasized that you enforce the act consistently. You understand the extent of the attack on the institution which must be on the alert for all elected members and, ultimately, protect our democracy. You are sensitive to that fact.
Does the Commissioner lack that sensitivity?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
No, because what are the choices? Should we refrain from enforcing the act? Because events can take an unpleasant turn for some, should we say we won't ensure that the legislation is enforced and administered in a consistent, fair, constant and coherent manner?
NDP
Thomas Mulcair NDP Outremont, QC
You know, there were never any other searches. Consistency is not an issue in this case.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Order.
Thank you. You will get another opportunity, but I do have to move on to another member.
We'll go to Mr. Hubbard, please.