Evidence of meeting #45 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was questions.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
So a particular auditor identified these five facts as being critical to the test?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I can't say that it was one auditor. In the process I described yesterday, where matters are raised for an auditor, the auditor brings it to his team leader, who then—
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Who made the order to have the other parties' 38th and 39th returns investigated for these five facts?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I requested my staff to conduct an analysis of the information to detect whether there was any indication that similar transactions had occurred for those two elections.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
So you identified these five facts, or did somebody give you a document saying you should really look back to the 38th and 39th election returns for these five facts to see if they're also present?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
That analysis was conducted well after the matter was put before the court. These factors or facts were already before the court—
Conservative
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
As I indicated earlier, following the process that exists at Elections Canada, questions arose in the review of returns, those questions--
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Mr. Mayrand, you're not answering my question, but I'm going to continue because I have a limited amount of time.
Have you ever worked on a campaign as an official agent?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
No. If I had, I don't think I would be eligible to be Chief Electoral Officer.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
I didn't think so, but I thought I'd investigate that.
I want to remind you that it's volunteers who work on these campaigns. These are unpaid individuals who usually work part-time in the evening. They do it for the love of their country. They're not getting paid. They're not financial experts or accountants generally, but they're there to help.
You've admitted that there's no basis in law, no point in the Elections Act that refers to these five facts, but you've identified them nonetheless. I put it to you, Mr. Mayrand, that they're neither reasonable nor legitimate.
Take the topic of television advertising. Although I'm no expert on the matter, I can only presume that it's a very complicated process involving multiple players, including graphic designers, actors, sound technicians, musicians, and television stations, to name only a few. I think it's absurd to suggest that every candidate who participates in television advertising would have his official agent understand the detailed knowledge that you're expecting about all these aspects. With the possibility of an election being around the corner, presumably you have put some thought into what election campaign advertising Elections Canada will be doing, since you're the person who's ultimately responsible for the budget for Elections Canada.
I was wondering if you could answer some of these detailed knowledge questions. What, for example, is the advertising budget for Elections Canada in the next election?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
It's around $1 million.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Around $1 million. Do you know how it is divided between radio, print, Internet, and television?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Mr. Hiebert, I apologize, but we are already at six minutes.
Mr. Mayrand, is there anything you want to say to complete your response there? I'll have to move on.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I would simply say that these points are being made in court currently.
Bloc
Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First, Mr. Mayrand, I would like to thank you for the clarifications you provided at the beginning of the meeting, and remind you that on April 29, all parties represented at this table, with the exception of the Conservatives, voted in favour of the Bloc Québécois motion to reaffirm our confidence in Elections Canada and the Chief Electoral Officer. So I wanted to reiterate that expression of confidence.
I would also like to take this opportunity, because we do not often have an opportunity to speak, here, to tell you that the Bloc Québécois will be voting against the Conservatives' motion requesting that you hold a public investigation into the lead that led to television cameras being present at the scene of the search you conducted with the help of the RCMP, because at this point the Conservatives are just feigning indignance.
They are asking you to conduct a public investigation, but they themselves conduct internal investigations. In the Maxime Bernier case, they did a hasty little investigation at Foreign Affairs. On the leak relating to Barack Obama and NAFTA, they did another hasty little internal investigation, and now they are asking you to a public investigation. That makes no sense, and that is why the Bloc Québécois will be voting against the motion.
We know, and we have just seen, that they are doing everything they can to divert attention and stall, as they did for the 10-hour discussion that resulted in you appearing here yesterday and today. They continually stall and raise points of order, each more far-fetched than the one before, to avoid discussing the real issues. Even when they talk about the searches, they change the subject. We get the impression that what shocks them is not the search, it's the fact that it was broadcast on television. In fact, when your position is indefensible, that is the only path to take.
Yesterday, Mr. Mayrand, you told me, me personally, that you did not know whom the advertising expenses should be allocated to. Groups of transactions were formed, and you said that all you knew was that the expenses were not attributable to the candidates. You have just reiterated that the official agents did not know that those expenses had been incurred, that there was no documentation, that the contracts were signed not by the candidates or the official agents but by the Party itself, and that the invoices were produced by the Party. In fact, everything was done under the control of the Party. In addition, the price paid was not the fair value.
Mr. Hiebert just said that the official agents were volunteers, activists. But the official agents, ordinarily, under the Act, and you can confirm this in a moment, it seems to me that they have to sign the documents that makes them accountable for the things they do. This is a very important position in a party. These aren't people checking things off on a list, their job is to be official agents and oversee a party's campaign expenses. That is so important that there are people in my riding who would not want to hold the position because they know that even though it is volunteer work, they are subject to a heavy code of ethics. I would like you to confirm that for me in a moment.
In a nutshell, the expense was not incurred by the candidate, by the official agent. So when we want to know whom to allocate the expense to, we can ask, to put it somewhat simply, who profits from the crime. But we have to ask where the money came from. In your documents, when we look to see who transferred the funds, we see that it was the Conservative fund. So I would like you to talk a bit about where the funds came from, for the official agents to sign cheques to Retail Media with their eyes shut, I suppose.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
We've already used up four and a half minutes of the five minutes for this slot. I will allow you to respond to the best of your ability to her questions, but then we'll have to move on to the next questioner.
Mr. Mayrand, please.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
On the question of official agents' qualifications, the Act does not require membership in an association of professional accountants. To my knowledge, it is left up to each campaign to decide who will be recruited to do that job.
On the question of allocating expenses, as I said yesterday, when I made my decision, over a year ago now, I did not know the facts that have now been placed on the court record as a result of the investigations or the proceedings in Federal Court. I therefore could not have considered that information in relation to allocation of the expenses. That decision is yet to be made.
Liberal
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I'll allow Mr. Hiebert to finish off his questioning.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Just before the last question, Mr. Mayrand, I was asking you some questions about your role as the chief executive officer of your organization, the one who is ultimately responsible for your budget. I'd asked you what your advertising budget is for the coming election. How much did you say it was?