Evidence of meeting #45 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was questions.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Mayrand, thank you again for your patience and for yesterday's testimony as well.
Mr. Mayrand, I am just thinking about some of the allegations that touch upon the issue of fraud and forgery. Has Elections Canada received any advice from the RCMP or the Director of Public Prosecutions in reference to those?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Again, the matter of the transactions related to these purchases is currently under investigation by the Commissioner of Canada Elections. I will not comment on the scope or content of that investigation.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
How many of these 65 candidates who achieved greater than 10% of the vote received taxpayer rebates prior to Elections Canada realizing the existence of this scheme or scandal, and do you have the total amount that Elections Canada has rebated?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
My recollection is that there were 17 candidates reimbursed before the issues came out regarding the various transactions. As to the exact amount that these claims represent for those 17 candidates, I would have to come back to the committee on that figure.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Thank you.
Are any of these sitting MPs? Can you tell us which ones? Are there any public office holders out of those 17?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Again, in my presentation yesterday, I did provide the list of public office holders.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
No, I'm sorry, there were only 10 public office holders. I provided the list that was submitted by the chair indicating when these office holders presented their returns to Elections Canada.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
I'm certain you provided that list of those people, but I'm particularly interested in whether they have received those rebates that they should be receiving.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I have some information here. Some of them have received reimbursement. Among the public office holders, there are some who did receive reimbursement or parts of the same thing.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
Do you know offhand which ones those are, or would you like to provide that to us later on?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I can provide it later on. We need to review the information to make sure that it's absolutely accurate.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
If we were to head into an election before the judicial review was resolved, is it possible that some of these candidates might campaign again with what might be deemed ill-gotten taxpayers' rebates, or have you sent them any letter to suggest that they should be putting that money aside?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I have not taken any steps to recover the funds at this point in time. That's because of the dispute currently before the Federal Court.
Liberal
Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC
My next question to you is in reference to a letter dated January 15, 2007, from Mr. Andrew Kumpf. You mentioned that Retail Media told Elections Canada that it did not issue invoices to candidates who participated in this scheme. Can you explain, then, why Andrew Kumpf's January 15, 2007, letter to Elections Canada appears to contradict what Retail Media told an investigator from the elections commissioner's office?
In this letter to Elections Canada, Mr. Kumpf states, and I quote, “appropriate invoices reflecting goods and services rendered were separately issued to participating Conservative Candidates and to the registered party...”. Has Retail Media explained this discrepancy? What will be the possible charges and penalties existing for someone like Mr. Kumpf, who may have made false statements to Elections Canada in order to help the Conservative Party hide the truth?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
This is a matter that is part of the investigation. I can't comment.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Mr. Mayrand, I'm going to continue along the line of questioning that I took yesterday. Considering that you were the one who raised these matters, I trust they're within the realm of questions that you can actually answer.
By way of clarification, you stated that the five factors are really five facts, but they are still a test. What makes this clear to me is that you applied them as a test to the other parties. You stated that all the other major parties had their returns reviewed for the 38th and 39th general elections, and that these five facts were identified.
In your reasoning, you've stated that all five facts are essential, and that only the presence of all five facts can justify the decision that you came to. As a matter of logic, if any one of your five facts is flawed, your conclusion is also flawed. I'd like to review one of your five facts in a bit of detail, to unpack it a little bit, because I think there's a flaw here that completely unravels this house of cards that you've established. But before I get to that, I want to get some administrative questions out of the way.
You said that these five facts were investigated in the other parties in the 38th and 39th general elections. I assume, then, that you have some paperwork that would substantiate the investigation applied to these other parties. Could you provide that documentation to the committee?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Again, this is a matter that's before the court.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
Oh, no, no, no, we talked about this yesterday, Mr. Mayrand.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I understand that. Let me finish.
I'm certainly willing to provide the committee with information that we have on this matter.
Conservative
Russ Hiebert Conservative South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC
I look forward to seeing that, because I'd love to see how the other parties stack up on these five facts and to see what level of detail was engaged in to make sure that they did or did not apply.
I also wanted to know who first identified these five factors as being critical. Was this something that you or somebody on your staff made up? Who identified these five factors as being critical?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
These facts come out of the analysis of the returns that were filed with Elections Canada. These are the facts that were observed regarding the files.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
By the auditor and various people in Elections Canada.
