Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 29th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

--the committee, through all the tools available to it, will make absolutely sure and assist you to have whatever boxes you need, when you need them, and to return them and to bring other boxes. We're going to facilitate you as much as we possibly can, so that you have access to whatever you need. You will have a transcript of the questions, of this full meeting--every word that has been spoken--within a couple of hours, so that you will be able to call. But the order is specific: you, personally, will have access to the place where these records are so that you can apprise yourself of what's there and what's not there.

If there is something that is in another location, for instance Toronto, or Switzerland, you will take all necessary steps to have those forwarded to you, to the same location, if you need them for the purposes of this committee.

We are going to be flexible on this. But it is not going to be acceptable to say.... There's no justification at this point. All parties know that you will have full access and the time to properly prepare and return and appear before this committee on Tuesday, December 4, at 11 a.m.

Is that understood?

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

I will do my best to satisfy you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you very kindly, sir.

Mr. Martin.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes, patiently. I would like to move that this committee report to the Speaker that Mr. Schreiber should be held in supervised house arrest for the period of time he is required to be available to appear as a witness before the committee.

Perhaps I could speak to the motion briefly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Martin, maybe you could facilitate this. I was advised that house arrest as opposed to at the detention centre is the issue. I understand that you have consulted with the other parties, not with me but with the other parties, and apprised the Speaker of the views of the four parties. I'm not sure, but it would appear to me that I've seen in the media or the press or in a statement that the Speaker at this time is not prepared to entertain that.

Now, I will let you speak--

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That was not my motion, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Okay, please carry on.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Chair, yesterday we did go to the Speaker in an informal way, after a consultation with at least three of the four parties. The Bloc, the NDP and the Conservatives all agreed that for a number of reasons that were in the newspaper, it would be beneficial if Mr. Schreiber were well rested, in a cooperative and friendly mood, and had full access to his papers, so we could make the most of this time, that it would be a beneficial hearing and our time would not be wasted.

We thought we had the support of the Liberal Party, but apparently that consultation was not in any way formal and my colleagues with the Liberals were not ready to say at that time that they could fully support the idea.

On that basis, the Speaker said no, he would stay where he was, for that night. He did not preclude the idea that perhaps, with proper consultation at a debate of the committee, we could reconsider it and recommend it to him again. So that's all I would like to do, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you. Thank you for the clarification.

Mr. Thibault.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

For clarification, our government House leader yesterday, when Mr. Martin was making that suggestion, indicated to the Speaker that we had raised no objection and were fully supportive of any decision the Speaker would make.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

So what I understand is that Mr. Martin is now raising the issue that all parties were consulted on yesterday with regard to last night. Mr. Martin is now basically....

Mr. Asselin, did you want to make an intervention, please?

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I was not consulted. I can ask questions, I was not consulted. This will instil a bit of order for the coming meetings.

Mr. Chairman, that the political parties were consulted is a good thing, but if you consulted the whip, then I would like him to tell us about it. Consultation with the parties might help establish some kind of unanimity around the table. What worries me is Mr. Schreiber's safety and the safety issue overall in this affair. We are asking Mr. Schreiber to be under house arrest in his own environment.

Can Mr. Schreiber's safety be compromised? Has the security of monitoring and surveillance been verified? I would like us to be provided with information on security.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Mr. Thibault.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

I'm a little concerned about the impression that's being put out there. I don't want to start getting a thousand calls to our members suggesting that we start bringing people out of prison on a motion of the House. If Mr. Martin put the sense out there that we had the authority, on a four-party agreement, to decide a mode of detention of any individual in Canada, that's absolutely false.

The detention is, as I understand it, federal custody, currently under the management of the Speaker, to facilitate the witness's presence here at the committee, and certainly not the decision of the four political parties in consultation on the disposition of any person in detention in Canada. I certainly wouldn't hope that the impression is put out there that we have that authority, that it's dealt with like that.

The authority is, I understand—and we have legal counsel here who may be able to clarify this—with the Department of Justice in consultation with the Speaker, as it exists now.

Am I correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Mr. Martin, would you please repeat your motion? I am going to put the question.

[A voice]

He's asking for....

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Oh, you're asking for a reaffirmation, to confirm what you.... That's fine. Okay.

Mr. Tardi, please.

[Gregory Tardi, Senior Parliamentary Counsel (Legal), House of Commons]

Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that Mr. Schreiber is formally in the custody of Corrections Ontario. He was transferred here on the basis not of release from custody, but simply removal within custody from one part of the province to another. Arrangements were made among Corrections Ontario, the Ottawa city police, and the Sergeant at Arms. My understanding was that when the committee proceedings are terminated for the day, he should backtrack in the same fashion as he was brought here.

Our summons and our warrant for witness did not include anything about residence at his private home, but rather residence at the Ottawa-Carleton Detention Centre for the time that he was in this city. Obviously the paragraph that you read out a few minutes ago about retrieval of documents has pertinence in this matter. Some sort of arrangement would have to be made among all the authorities involved either to bring those documents from Mr. Schreiber's home to the Ottawa-Carleton Detention Centre or to bring Mr. Schreiber from the detention centre to his home for a time, to recover those documents and to put them in his possession.

That's my understanding, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Okay.

Mr. Martin, please.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Let me briefly, Mr. Chairman....

I think we're not giving enough weight to the Speaker's warrant. I understand Mr. Tardi's point, that the current arrangements are tripartite in a way: the custody of the Province of Ontario, and then escort by other police, and then once he got into the precincts the Sergeant at Arms took over.

But in fact it's a Speaker's warrant. He's in the custody of the Speaker, and it's within the power of the Speaker to dictate the terms and conditions of the custody. That's the legal advice that we have.

My motion is simply a recommendation as well, Mr. Chairman, to the Speaker: that if this committee agrees Mr. Schreiber would be better off in his own home under supervised house arrest, if you will, we would recommend strongly to the Speaker to make it so. And I argue it is within the power of the Speaker to make it so.

The last thing I would add is that you can't possibly believe this guy is a serious flight risk, if that's the reasoning behind it. I don't believe it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

It's Mr. Schreiber you're referring to?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes—that Mr. Schreiber is a flight risk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

I was aware of this. I briefly discussed it last night with the Speaker, and I think the understanding is that the Speaker and, in his consultation with them, all of the parties who have some link in the chain of custody have to concur, and that will be done.

I'd ask the clerk, at this point, for the final item of this meeting to read into the record the motion on which we are going to call the question.

Please, Mr. Clerk.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Richard Rumas]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Martin has moved that this committee report to the Speaker that Mr. Schreiber should be held in supervised house arrest for the period of time he is required to be available to appear as a witness before the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Mr. Wallace, if you would like to debate this, carry on.