Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 6th, 2007

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I think that we are going to be able to make connections, Mr. Schrieber.

You have just said that all the witnesses in this entire affair must be believed. Personally, I have a hard time believing you. On Tuesday, you told me that the $300,000 paid to former prime minister Brian Mulroney had nothing to do with the Airbus affair. Yet, in the pile of documents that you left us with on Tuesday, there was a letter that you yourself sent to Mr. Mulroney on May 8, 2007 in which you threaten Mr. Mulroney with revealing, amongst other things, that GCI, the Canadian firm that had lobbied for Airbus, had made payments to Mr. Mulroney.

First of all, this is in direct contradiction to what you told me on Tuesday. Second, I cannot believe that you were threatening Mr. Mulroney with saying publicly that you had paid him $300,000 since at least one television program had already done so. It was clear that you had paid him $300,000.

The following words appear at the end of the sentence: "I am prepared to disclose that you received payments from GCI, Frank Moores, Fred Doucet, Gary Ouellet and that I was asked by Fred Doucet to transfer funds to your lawyer in Geneva (Airbus)[...]"

Could you tell us why you wrote "(Airbus)"?

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

Well, Ma'am, you received all those documents, I take it, from me.

The point is that I was shocked one day. As I said, I thought what I was saying was so easy and so simple and so clear, and if you later on learn how the whole Airbus project was done, you will understand why I was somewhat confused.

The situation was as follows. Frank Moores--and I think I mentioned this the other day--and the other shareholders, who were entitled to all the money GCI received, regardless of where, had trouble with each other. The only people who knew what happened in Switzerland were Frank Moores and Gary Ouellet.

And here comes Fred Doucet. He asked me whether the figures he obtained from Mr. Moores were correct, whether I could confirm that this was the money that came to the account.

Well, you understand, I was not entitled to tell Gary or Fred Doucet what was going on in GCI. I said, “Don't you think it's proper that you speak to the shareholders or to Mr. Moores? I cannot give you these answers without his okay.” Then he said--and now comes the point when I nearly froze--“I want you to make sure that GCI, through you, transfers certain amounts of money to an account in Geneva, to a lawyer in Geneva, which is Mr. Mulroney's lawyer.”

And I--

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

C'est vous qui l'avez dit.

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

Let me continue. Otherwise, you will not--

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I am not sure that I completely understood. You asked for funds to be transferred.

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

Mr. Doucet asked me to make sure that from the GCI money, money goes to the lawyer in Geneva for Mr. Mulroney.

You don't have the feeling from me that I can easily be shocked, but I was. I said, “What are you talking about? Why the hell would one send money to a lawyer in Geneva for Mr. Mulroney? What for?” And now came this unbelievable answer. He said, “For Airbus.” I hear myself even today asking, “What the hell has Mulroney to do with Airbus?” His answer was, “Are you naive?”

So I said, okay, I'll leave it this way, and I went to Frank Moores and said, “Frank, I want to know from you.... You know this is a deal between the European partners from Airbus and governments. What the hell is he talking about?” Frank Moores said to me, “Leave it with us. Don't talk about it. You have nothing to do with all this.”

You can imagine that I was pretty troubled, because I had several questions about that. Number one, is it true? I told you before I'm not saying this to impress you, but my life is at least to try to be objective, and I think I was a very good judge. I'm not just kicking people; I want to know what it is. So I asked myself, could it be, number one, that Mr. Mulroney has a lawyer there and a bank account in Switzerland? Number two, is it okay that Mr. Doucet would tell me to send money for him there, or...? And Ma'am, unfortunately this happens quite often, and I think this is a principle—I have seen this quite often around top leaders in politics, prime ministers or presidents—that people come and say something that is not true. My thought was, could it be that Fred Doucet wanted to make some money for himself?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order.

Madame Lavallée, I'm going to add some time back to your clock.

Mr. Schreiber, maybe the question had too many elements to it at once. Maybe we could break it down into its pieces so that we can get the answers to the member's questions.

We would like to get all of the facts, and I think we will have to be a little crisper, if you understand what I'm saying. I'm going to ask Madame Lavallée to get the elements that are required one at a time and allow the witness to answer, so that we have a clear response.

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

Good.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I want to make sure that I am understanding completely. The interpreters here are excellent, but sometimes your enthusiasm leads you to speak quickly, and some parts get missed. Did you say that Fred Doucet asked you to transfer funds to Mr. Mulroney's lawyer in order to, if you will permit the expression, share in the Airbus spoils?

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

This is not right, Ma'am. He asked me to make sure that money from GCI would be transferred to the lawyer of Mr. Mulroney in Geneva.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

And where did the GCI money come from?

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

Yes, from all the business. Fred asked me about the amounts there, because he didn't believe the figures he got from Mr. Mulroney on it.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

So why did you write "(Airbus)"?

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

Because Fred Doucet, when I asked why would Mulroney get any money, for what, said, “Airbus”. This is why I told you I was so shocked. I couldn't get it into my head what Mulroney had to do with Airbus--at that time.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

So Fred Doucet asked you to share the Airbus spoils with Mr. Mulroney?

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

Yes, send money; make sure that Mr. Mulroney gets money from GCI that was in the account in Switzerland.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

It was to thank him for what he done during the Airbus affair?

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

But this is.... When I asked him what for, why should I tell Frank Moores that he should give me more or less an order to send money from GCI to this account from a lawyer, he said, “For Airbus”. I nearly fell unconscious.

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh!

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

You may laugh, but I knew how the whole deal was done. I could not see why I or GCI would pay Mr. Mulroney, and this was, of course, not my business.

Are you with me?

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

But, in the same letter, you said to Mr. Mulroney that he had already received money from GCI, from Frank Moores and from Gary Ouellet. It is there in writing: "I am prepared to disclose that you received payments from GCI [...]"

So this money was certainly not the $300,000 that we have been talking about for several weeks. What money was it? How much? When? How?

[Karlheinz Schreiber]

Ma'am, I told you this was an agreement from the beginning, from the early eighties; if Mr. Mulroney becomes the Prime Minister, everybody gets something. I could give you a whole list--Alta Nova, Frank Moores, and later GCI would be the lobbying company. When Mr. Mulroney is no longer the Prime Minister, he would join the company. He has to work for the company because he should have a living. This was the explanation I got. When Mr. Moores and Mr. Ouellet told me I should stay away from this, that this is their business...I want to know how much did GCI pay to Mr. Mulroney. But this has nothing to do specifically with this money in Switzerland. It was money based for the business that GCI had in total.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Did I hear...

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

You can ask a final question.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Did I hear you right when you said that you wanted to know how much GCI money had been paid to Mr. Mulroney? Did I understand correctly? That means that he got more.