Evidence of meeting #15 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was brunswick.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Legal Counsel, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
Information should be provided to everyone.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, Mr. Whalen.
I think you mentioned in your opening remarks that historically New Brunswick had a fairly old access to information regime. I think you described it as a light regime. How many requests for access to information per year has New Brunswick had historically?
Legal Counsel, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
It's a small province, so we're probably talking about 400 to 500 access requests per year across government.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
That sounds fairly modest. And I think you said there are not many complaints.
Legal Counsel, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
I'm not sure how that compares in terms of our population of 700,000 to the 35 million or so across Canada. I think it's not quite as active a use of the legislation as we see federally. We probably have about 70 to 80 access petitions in the course of the year.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
So it sounds like the usage is fairly light, and therefore the cost of providing that system is probably fairly modest.
In answering one of Mr. Dreeshen's questions, you mentioned that you don't believe there are a lot of foreign users of the access to information system in New Brunswick. Perhaps the federal system is different, given the scope of the federal government's activities, which tend to be more international. We have things such as foreign affairs, international treaties, and that sort of thing.
In terms of the question on the cost of providing access to information, you mentioned that charging fees that were close to approximately the actual cost of providing the information would be a tax on democracy. What do you say with respect to a foreign user who didn't pay that tax in the first place? Where is the benefit to the people in New Brunswick or to the people in Canada in providing that?
I think you know Mr. Marleau mentioned that the average cost of complying with an access to information request at the federal level is about $1,425 per request and the recovery is about $5. Where is the benefit to the Canadian taxpayer who funds that system to provide information, for example, to a foreign government that may want to know the basis for a decision on a Canadian position on a foreign treaty?
Legal Counsel, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
I think if a foreign government was looking for a Canadian position on a foreign treaty, they probably wouldn't get access to that based on the exemptions available under the act—
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
That's currently, but one of Mr. Marleau's recommendations is that we open up our access to information to anyone in the world.
Legal Counsel, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
But I think we could do that and still rely on the exemptions applicable under our legislation to protect against that type of disclosure that you were just mentioning.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
In what sense? Perhaps if it was a cabinet confidence, but Mr. Marleau is suggesting that we open up cabinet discussions to access as well.
Legal Counsel, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
I think Mr. Marleau is suggesting that the Information Commissioner have the ability to review cabinet records in order to verify claims in terms of cabinet confidences.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
I actually think his recommendation is to generally make cabinet confidences available after a certain period of time.
Legal Counsel, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
After a certain period of time, right, and that's consistent also with FOI practice. So I'm sorry, your question was—
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
My question is, where is the benefit to the Canadian taxpayer in paying for foreign requests?
Legal Counsel, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
I think the benefit to the taxpayer is a healthier democracy. I think that the notion behind the right to information process is that the more the citizenry is informed, the more likely it'll be that there will be good public debate on matters of national significance. The fact that we can invite the review of our peers beyond our borders to matters that may be of concern to Canadians, I think, is a testimony to the strength of our democracy. Are we going to be—
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Could you foresee a situation where a foreign country that does not have a reciprocal freedom of information or access to information regime would get information on the negotiating position of the Canadian government and yet not be in a position to have to make that same information about their position available to the Canadian government or to a Canadian citizen?
Legal Counsel, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
I think it's maybe a question of cost-benefit analysis. I'm not sure how those concerns are addressed in other nations where there are no similar limitations in place. I think there would be a greater benefit to allow relatives of Canadian residents and friends of Canadian residents residing abroad to inquire into Canadian administrative practices based on an access regime with respect to issues that may be of concern to them as individuals.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Mr. Chair, could I borrow a little bit of the time that you used at the beginning of the session?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Do you want ask Mr. Hiebert if you could have some of his time? Mr. Whalen will probably be walking out of the door and I don't--
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
I wanted to hear his views on data brokers. Mr. Marleau said that significant numbers of the users of the Canadian system are what he would describe as commercial data brokers, who are then fishing for information and then selling that information to customers for a fee.
Legal Counsel, New Brunswick Office of the Ombudsman
I think there is a risk that the practice of precluding foreign residents from accessing our access and forcing them to go through data brokers actually exacerbates the tendency and makes a business case available to those data brokers. I don't think that's necessarily in our democratic interest.
Conservative
Bob Dechert Conservative Mississauga—Erindale, ON
There are data brokers who are simply in the business of accumulating information and then selling it as a commercial property, tax-free. It's like a free good that we're providing to these commercial enterprises, which are then charging a fee to consumers to access that information. Does it make sense to you that the taxpayer should fund that?
