Evidence of meeting #31 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mandate.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Now, when I was going through the financial attachments that were here, I noticed that in your report you had stated that there's an office budget of $4.5 million for salaries, if I'm reading it correctly. Is that correct?
9:45 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Okay.
And then in your report on page 22, you talk about having 47 positions, eight of which are vacant, and that you had trouble recruiting top-notch talent. So I'm looking at the $4.5 million for 47 positions, and that works out to probably around a $95,000 salary.
What presents the problem, then, recruiting and retaining talent with that kind of salary range? What other issues are we looking at that we need to be addressing?
9:45 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Everybody has trouble recruiting the people they want, and there are always people moving around. It's the normal churn of employees that are available.
The other thing is that we face competition from the public service. They also have trouble sometimes filling all their positions. I think the point is no bigger than that, really.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
So there are no specific issues that we need to be concerned about at this level.
9:50 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, I don't think so. As a matter of fact, I've made quite a bit of progress in recent months on staffing my positions. We have five vacant positions now out of 46 positions; that is what we're now saying we have. We must have eliminated a position. We're gradually filling our positions, and I think the office is stabilizing.
9:50 a.m.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
You talk quite a bit about compliance and how it has improved, and you talk about your education program, your notice of obligations to the public office-holders, and the reminders after 30 days and 50 days. I think those are absolutely good things to be doing, and it does take all of us a bit of time to get used to procedure that we haven't been following in the past.
You also point out that compliance is weakest when a person's situation changes. They may have made their disclosure under the act; they've changed position, and then they or you find that they're not in compliance. I would think that if they had made disclosures previously, they probably are very inadvertently missing this next step.
How can you improve awareness of this situation so that people are more in compliance?
9:50 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It is just by contacting them or educating them in one way or another. We try to look for opportunities. We frequently send our advisers to give presentations, for example, to different boards that have lots of members, and I look for opportunities to give presentations myself.
The biggest thing we find is that people are supposed to report material changes to their holdings, for example, and we usually find out about them at the annual report stage. They don't do the reporting within 30 days. We ultimately find out about it, but the act isn't always top of mind when people are buying new shares or something.
It's an administrative issue. We just have to keep reminding people, and we look for opportunities to remind people.
9:50 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
For example, when people are in final compliance, we've added a couple of paragraphs to our letter reminding them about the interim things they have to watch for until their next annual report. We try in different ways.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Thank you.
I'd like to raise, in the context of this first round, this whole idea of dealing with the ethical matters. One thing hasn't been mentioned. Commissioner, maybe you could enlighten the committee on the force and effect of Accountable Government: A Guide for Ministers and Ministers of State, 2008, which is under the Privy Council Office. These are the guidelines for ministers and ministers of state, which include annexes G and H on...interesting things.
The letter from the Prime Minister describes this document by saying, “These measures complement the Conflict of Interest Act”--which is what you operate under in your mandate--“and establish the most rigorous conflict avoidance regime in Canada.”
If the Prime Minister believes that this guide for ministers, plus the Conflict of Interest Act, are the whole package, and you can't deal with some of the nuances in the Prime Minister's package, who would a member make a complaint to on an item that's under the guidelines instead of the act?
9:50 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The Privy Council Office is the administrator of the guidelines for ministers.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Okay. I knew that, but I wanted members to know it too. There is another option here, and it may be the Privy Council Office. Members who are interested in pursuing this matter should consult them.
I also note here that it says, “Compliance with these Guidelines is a term and condition of appointment. Before appointment, a public office-holder shall certify that he or she will comply with these Guidelines.” It would appear that in these guidelines there is a letter of resignation, undated, for each minister. Is that correct?
9:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I couldn't confirm that, but I'm sure it's correct.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Michelle Simson Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Thank you, Ms. Dawson, for appearing again before the committee. I've found it very educational whenever you've appeared.
I'd like to get back to the question of staffing for a moment. You say you have five of 46 positions vacant. How many of your staff members are charged with vetting the submissions from public office-holders, from ministers?
9:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I think it is in the order of about 20. We have eight advisers and then their managers. There is a total of 18 in that section, the compliance and advisory section.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Michelle Simson Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Okay, there are 18 people who would vet the submissions that they send in.
9:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Michelle Simson Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
On average, how long does it take to get those vetted and back to the public office-holders?
9:55 a.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It depends on the complexity, but I will let my compliance assistant speak.
9:55 a.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
All in all, they have 120 days to comply with the act, so in most cases we receive the information within 60 days. That's the timeline for them to submit their report, so technically we have 60 days to make sure the public office-holder is in compliance with the act. Depending on the nature of the information we receive, it can be two days for somebody to be in compliance with the act or it can take up to the full 60 days, and sometimes it extends because of the nature of the obligations and the assets they have, or sometimes they have to step down.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Michelle Simson Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
Are they notified in writing when you've signed off, as it were, when you've found them to be in compliance?
9:55 a.m.
Assistant Commissioner, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, they all receive a final letter once they're in compliance, saying they are in compliance with the act and, therefore, to remain in compliance with the act they have to inform us of these ongoing obligations.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Michelle Simson Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON
When I was first selected for vetting, I submitted my financial report and it took 10 months to get a letter back saying that I was in compliance. I was just wondering if that was the case with respect to ministers, and perhaps that could be an issue.
I wasn't out of compliance. I chased that letter to get it. Is there a possibility that there are omissions, because people do file on time and things do change, but they haven't even gotten a sign-off on their original submission?