Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 24th, 2009

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to Mr. Rimmer and Mr. Bruce for taking the time to meet with the committee.

I only have a few questions. My first one would be to you, Mr. Rimmer.

In reviewing your opening comments, I noted that in the conclusion you said that you'd like to end by stressing that, as we know, a change in culture is essential for the implementation of this directive. How do you view our current culture, and what are the specific changes that would be required to make this a successful program?

[Douglas Rimmer]

The change in culture we're referring to is one that encourages all public servants to understand that information management and good recordkeeping is part of the core functions of government and encourages them to pay attention to that as early in the process of creating records as they can.

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Okay. But you said you're stressing this change in culture. Based on what you're saying, is it your view that perhaps we have a less than open culture right now, maybe one with a little bit of secrecy or an unwillingness to be forthcoming with information? I'm interested in how you view the culture now. I understand what you're saying about changes. How do you view the current culture that we're operating in now?

[Douglas Rimmer]

The point you mentioned was not the point that I was trying to make. The culture at the moment we don't believe pays sufficient attention to good records management as early in the process as is helpful to supporting transparency and accountability. We would like to strengthen the awareness of public servants of the need to do that and provide them with the tools, the policy, and framework within which they can do that, so that as early as possible, as public servants in the course of doing their daily work, they're creating records, they're understanding which records need to be kept, which have business value, which are temporary records that don't need to be preserved, and we have good management practices right from the outset. That's the culture we need to strengthen.

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Would you say that over the past number of years there has been a tendency to rely on oral directives and oral communication, as opposed to putting it in print or doing it electronically by e-mail?

[Douglas Rimmer]

The concern we're trying to address is that public servants are so focused on delivering the business to Canadians, serving Canadians in whatever way they're supposed to, that they're not thinking as much as they need to about how they are creating and documenting their activities. We would like to see a renewed emphasis on that area.

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Mr. Bruce, in reading all the documentation, I think the directive for recordkeeping was done in consultation and collaboration with various departments, not the least of which was the access to information office. Did you hear any concerns about our not getting access in a timely manner or about our access being somewhat restricted?

[Peter Bruce]

We have heard that message from the Office of the Information Commissioner and from information commissioners themselves. That's one of the reasons you'll see several references to the capacity of this recordkeeping directive to support our compliance with the Access to Information Act.

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

This committee has done a study on the Access to Information Act, which is 26 years old. How is this directive going to help Canadians get the information? It's all well and good to retain the documentation and the information, but if the average Canadian has to wait upwards of two years to access it, there is a hitch in the system. Can you give me the correlation between the directive and Canadian access?

[Peter Bruce]

If it's not identified and captured, it can't become accessible. And if you don't know where it is, and it's not structured in a way that allows you to retrieve it, it's not accessible. If we do both of those things better, then it should support the access to information.

[Michelle Simson, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Would you both agree that what we should be looking for is proactive online access for Canadians?

[Peter Bruce]

That is a decision for parliamentarians and the government. Our job is to look at the current legislative framework and provide directives to departments on how to operate within it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mrs. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Rimmer and Mr. Bruce, thank you so much for appearing before us this morning and giving us all a good information session on this topic. It's of vital importance to all Canadians.

Mr. Rimmer, in your opening remarks, you said that the volume of information generated by the government was growing exponentially. Why do you think that is? Is it just a result of more business? Are there any other reasons why you can see this increased amount?

[Douglas Rimmer]

In this regard, the Government of Canada is no different from our society as a whole. Throughout the world, the sheer amount of information generated each year is growing exponentially. Part of it is due to the ease with which we can create information. When it's easy to get and store at a relatively low cost, people tend to do more of it. Even in the electronic age, we're seeing that more information is being published each year than ever before. So the government is only a small part of a broad trend.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

You also said in your opening remarks that you noticed that a change in culture was essential for the implementation of effective 21st century recordkeeping in government. Could you expand on that and give us some examples of digital information or sources that you keep track of?

[Douglas Rimmer]

Certainly. With respect to the cultural changes that I was referring to before, most public servants have the ability right at their desktop to create files, to store documents, and those documents are government records. They might be very well-organized on one individual's computer, but if that individual were to leave and go to another organization, are those records well linked in with the corporate management system, so those that need to be kept are kept and those that should appropriately be disposed of--so we're not needlessly storing documents--are disposed of. We think that can be strengthened through the directive on recordkeeping and its implementation in departments. That's one example of where the tools facilitate the creation of records, and what we need to support is the management of those records in a strengthened way in the future.

You asked a second question, which is about the kind of documentation that Library and Archives Canada stores in digital format. We hope very soon to begin the transfer of government records to us once they reach the point in their overall life cycle when they should be transferred to the archives for permanent storage. We will soon be able to do that electronically. We've been testing our system in that regard. We also obtain a variety of electronic publications from publishers. So there's a lot of digital material coming to Library and Archives Canada at present under our mandate to support and preserve the documentary heritage of Canada.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Bruce, perhaps you could elaborate a little bit further. My next question is, what measures are in place to make sure there is continuity and consistency when personnel does change? Could you elaborate a bit more on that?

[Peter Bruce]

Certainly the roles and responsibilities directive, which I'm sorry we haven't provided, does require that employees document their business activities while in government. Assuming this directive on recordkeeping is implemented, that transition of employees and the knowledge transfer required should be significantly improved because the records of business value will be captured and organized in a way that makes them accessible not only for other purposes but to the people assuming those roles and functions going forward.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Bruce, I see in your bio that you had been at the Library and Archives of Canada and you're now the deputy chief information officer at the Treasury Board Secretariat. Do you think your past experience has helped you to take a lead on the issue of recordkeeping, and if so, how?

[Peter Bruce]

There's a tremendous team of dedicated people doing the work on developing this directive, so I certainly wouldn't want to take a lot of the credit. I think the credit really goes to the team.

But I do think that having worked at Library and Archives Canada and understanding the Library and Archives of Canada Act and what “disposition” means has been particularly helpful. Understanding the significant impact that the shift from paper records to electronic records is having is particular helpful. Of course, knowing colleagues there and being able to collaborate on files like this is critically important to being able to get good, sensible guidance out to departments.

So I think it helps.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you very much. That's all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dorion, please.

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you.

Good morning, gentlemen.

Mr. Bruce, compliance with this directive that we've discussed this morning is closely linked to compliance with the Access to Information Act. When we examined that act in this committee very recently, a number of witnesses suggested to us that all government documentation should be put on line, with certain exceptions related to privacy and security, etc. In general, they asked that all government operations be made available to the public so that people can understand at any time why certain decisions are made by reading what has been done on the Internet.

Is that something feasible? Is it a proposal that could work?

[Peter Bruce]

I believe it's a proposal that could work in the medium and long terms. The requirements of this directive should be put in place so that we are really capable of providing citizens with this kind of direct access to the Government of Canada. I think it's something that can be done. That's done in other places.