Evidence of meeting #6 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was office-holders.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mary Dawson  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Karen Shepherd  Interim Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Bruce Bergen  Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Good afternoon, colleagues. This is meeting number six of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Our order of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), is briefings from two of the commissioners connected with our committee.

In the first hour we have Madam Mary Dawson, the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

Welcome, Commissioner. I know you've had a very busy time, particularly after an election. We've had a renewal of requirements in terms of declarations by public office-holders and others. I know the members are very interested to find out the state of the union within your commission and look forward to your words.

I would invite you now to address the committee.

3:35 p.m.

Mary Dawson Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Thank you, Mr. Chair. First, may I congratulate you on your re-election as chair of the committee.

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before you today. I look forward to working with all of you.

I understand that most members are new to this committee. I am pleased to be here to tell you a little bit about my mandate and role and to update you on some of my office's recent activities.

The position of Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner was created by amendments to the Parliament of Canada Act included in the Federal Accountability Act. I took office on July 9, 2007.

My office is an independent parliamentary entity reporting directly to Parliament. I administer two conflict of interest regimes.

The first one is under the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons. The code was drafted by the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, approved by the House of Commons in the spring of 2004, and came into effect on the commencement of the 38th Parliament in October 2004. I carry out my duties in relation to the code under the general direction of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

The second regime I administer is under the Conflict of Interest Act. It applies to some 2,700 public office-holders, defined under the act to include cabinet ministers, parliamentary secretaries, ministerial staff and advisers, and most Governor in Council appointees. About 1,000 of these 2,700 are designated as reporting public office-holders, and they're subject to additional rules and reporting requirements under the act.

The Conflict of Interest Act came into force on July 9, 2007, the very same day on which my appointment was effective.

There can be some confusion about the scope of my role, so I'll say a few words about what's outside my mandate.

My responsibilities do not extend to senators or to the judiciary. Senators are subject to their own code, which is administered by the Senate Ethics Officer. Public servants are subject to the Values and Ethics Code for the Public Service of Canada, which is established by the government.

I've also noticed some general confusion in the public as to my relationship with this very committee. This has occurred particularly when this committee has held hearings on particular ethical issues. It's sometimes assumed that my office is part of these deliberations. In fact, we are two separate and independent entities. The role of my office is to assist and advise members and public office-holders on their compliance obligations, to receive confidential reports and maintain a public registry, and to conduct investigations into alleged breaches of either the act or the code.

As for my reporting relationship with Parliament and with your committee in particular, the Parliament of Canada Act requires that I provide two annual reports, to be presented by June 30 for the previous fiscal year. One deals with the activities relating to members of the House of Commons and is referred to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. The other one relates to my activities concerning public office-holders under the Conflict of Interest Act, and it's referred to your committee. You currently have my 2007-08 annual report, which I've provided to you among your briefing materials.

I've used these annual reports to highlight successes, issues, and challenges, and I intend to continue to do so. In addition to my annual reports, your committee is also responsible for reviewing my office's proposed expenditure plans or estimates and reporting them to the House.

When I appeared before this committee in November 2007, I outlined the priorities I had established for the following year. I am happy to report a number of operational and organizational improvements and accomplishments.

My focus has been and continues to be prevention. My office has undertaken a variety of activities to ensure that public office-holders understand their obligations under the Conflict of Interest Act and that we apply its provisions with consistency, clarity, and common sense. For example, we've issued guidelines on gifts and reimbursements relating to trusts, as well as information notices addressing issues of general interest relating to political activities and post-employment. We've also issued a notice clarifying how the new tax-free savings accounts, introduced in January 2009, relate to compliance requirements for public office-holders.

My staff and I have met with various groups of public office-holders, including heads and members of federal boards and tribunals, and ministers and their staff, to discuss the application of the act to their situations. These sessions are of particular importance for ministers' offices because of the relatively frequent changes in staff. I've also accepted a number of opportunities to speak publicly about my role, in an effort to increase the overall awareness of the ethics regimes for public office-holders and members of Parliament.

In the fall of last year, as we prepared to implement the new administrative monetary penalty scheme, we established a system of warning notices in relation to some of the disclosure deadlines outlined in the act. These warning notices have been very effective in promoting compliance without actually having to impose a penalty. Monetary penalties are, of course, intended to encourage compliance with the act rather than to punish.

In an election year the bulk of our work continues to be in the area of advisory services where compliance measures are reviewed or established not only for members of Parliament but also for all cabinet members, parliamentary secretaries, and their respective staff. Our advisers have been providing effective and timely services in this regard within the timelines specified in the act.

In the last year we've achieved a noticeable reduction in backlogs in the area of annual reviews. In fact, I think we've probably just about eliminated them, which I'm delighted about. By adding new tracking tools to our internal management database, we're now in a better position to manage our ongoing requirements under the act.

The extra work brought about by the election has been accomplished, in addition to responding to the numerous regular requests for advice that my advisers deal with every day and the more routine processes involved in bringing other new reporting office-holders into compliance with the Conflict of Interest Act.

We've redesigned our corporate website to make it more user friendly, and a number of information notices and guidelines can now be found on our website. We've also improved the public registry to make it more comprehensible to the general public. This new registry will be operational within the next two weeks. We've also developed an electronic public registry for members of Parliament, which will be operational shortly as well.

I've continued to make a number of organizational changes to better reflect the needs of the organization, in particular streamlining the upper management of my office. I have eliminated the position of a single deputy commissioner and replaced it with two assistant commissioners directly responsible for particular operational areas. Those two officers are the assistant commissioner of advisory and compliance, who oversees the provision of advice to clients; and the assistant commissioner of policy and communications, who oversees outreach and communications activities and assists the office in the development of clear and consistent policies and procedures.

I have a fully staffed legal services group under the direction of a general counsel, which assists my office with the interpretation of the act and the code, the conduct of examinations and inquiries, and other legal work.

The director of corporate services and her staff provide us with human resources, financial, and IT support. She has contributed much to the improvement of our record systems. I've also hired an executive adviser, who will assist me with the management of workflow in the office. She begins on Thursday this week, and I'm looking forward to that.

As for my priorities, as I've often said, I've been very impressed by the dedication to the public interest that I've seen on the part of public officials, whether elected or appointed. A continuing priority will be to support and facilitate public office-holders and members of the House of Commons in complying with the act and the code.

We will develop and put into place a coordinated outreach strategy to provide ongoing education for those subject to the code and the act--members and public office-holders--as well as the public at large and other stakeholders. We will continue to enhance and improve the information on the act and the code found on our website, and we'll continue to develop a records management system to improve the completeness and comprehensiveness of files, as well as the efficiency of the workflow.

As to members of the House of Commons, I am pleased to note that my office has recently published on our website four disclosure statement forms necessary for members to comply with their compliance requirements under the code, following their concurrence by the House. I expect to work with the new subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs created to study the rules on gifts under the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons.

In conclusion, I have not addressed any budgetary matters or any issues related to my office's resources, and I assume I will address these as well as the budgetary process that applies to my office during your committee's review of my proposed main estimates for 2009-10, which I believe were referred to your committee last Thursday.

I'm already working on my next annual report, and I intend to raise a number of issues and challenges I have faced in interpreting and applying the act.

As my annual report will automatically be referred to your committee, I look forward to further discussions with you on this, as well as on my office's expenditures, already referred to your committee. Finally, I would also encourage members to consult my website for further information.

I thank you for your attention, and I'd be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you kindly.

I think we're going to move directly to questions because our time is going to be short.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, please.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Commissioner.

Commissioner, what is the dollar limit for gifts that one can receive from foreign governments?

3:45 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

There's no differentiation about who you receive them from, but if you're talking about the act, there's a $1,000 limit. Under the code, there's no limit. Then there are different limits for reporting.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

So there's a $1,000 limit, but should it come in the form of travel to foreign countries, and a person is wined and dined, allowed to stay in five-star hotels, there's no limit as long as they report that they may have been on this $10,000 trip sponsored by a foreign government? Is that correct?

3:45 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

The sponsored travel is dealt with completely separately and it's just a matter of reporting the amount. Yes, there's no limit.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

I know you just apply the rules, you don't set them, but doesn't that seem to indicate an inconsistency? All other forms of gifts have this very specific limit, yet when it comes to travel by members of Parliament who legislate, put policy--especially foreign policy--in place, there's absolutely no limit on the amount of wining and dining that may happen overseas, far away from Ottawa.

3:45 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I can't really comment, because it is a matter of policy, but one comment I suppose I could make is that as far as I'm concerned, disclosure is more potent than anything else, and at least it has to be disclosed.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

It has to be disclosed, but whether or not the public follows all of the procedures is a different matter. Do MPs tend to recuse themselves? For instance, with members of the foreign affairs committee, are you aware of any situations where members have taken these sorts of trips--some would call them junkets--and then recused themselves from the decision-making processes in regard to countries in which they've travelled where someone else has covered their costs?

3:50 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I have no examples of recusals in that area at all.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

In your studies of the rules put in place by most other countries, would they have much more stringent rules in regard to this particular area than Canada does? If so, is there any reason you may be aware of as to why we've allowed this to slip by?

3:50 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Generally speaking, I find that Canada has relatively more stringent rules than other countries in these areas, but I actually have not looked into the question of sponsored travel. I could do so if you would like me to.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

That would be tremendously helpful, especially looking at western countries and how they deal with parliamentary travel overseas.

Moving on to a different question, I noted that in 2008 there were reports from only 52% of the 416 public office-holders, or I should say it was this number who met the deadline. What percent have since still not met requirements, not just the deadline? It's basically that half didn't meet the deadline.

3:50 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Yes. It's significantly higher now. I'm just in the process of gathering those figures. We're not at the end of this fiscal year yet, but we're in the process of gathering them for our next annual report. But I can say that we've put a huge effort on the 60-day and the 120-day deadlines because of the penalty scheme we were asked to impose. I felt that we could not start imposing the scheme until we had a really good handle on the processes to get the reports in.

I can say that we basically don't have anyone at the moment missing the 60-day deadline, and on the 120-day deadline, it's a little more difficult to actually administer that one, because sometimes it takes more of the 120 days to sort out the intricacies of certain trust arrangements. But they're in very good shape.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

I was referring to the 2007-08 deadline, when every second public office-holder out of 416 seemed to miss the deadline. And it's not that perhaps people are lax. It seems to indicate to me, and I could be wrong, that perhaps adequate notice or adequate information hasn't been provided to those public office-holders that this is an absolute requirement. Would that be a fair assumption?

3:50 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Yes. I inherited this office a year and a half ago, and what you're referring to is the fall-out from the previous office. As I said, one of my first priorities was to get the timelines into shape, and I think we've done so. Definitely, when I came in I found there was a lot of backlog.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Looking at 2007-08 once again, there were 110 individual trust arrangements, and it says at a cost to the crown of not quite $700,000. I'm surprised that it's less than $7,000 per trust arrangement. What exactly is taken care of in those trust arrangements for those public office-holders?

3:50 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

It's mainly stocks and investments. It's just the cost of the trustee to administer those investments.

What I found was that some people weren't claiming anything for those and other people were claiming. We have guidelines on our website, and some people claimed more than the guidelines, but they can only get the amount that's in the guidelines, which we've determined is a fair value. Those are the figures we've found.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

How many members of Parliament--

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

You're at seven minutes already.

Madam Thi Lac, please.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Thank you very much for appearing before us today, Ms. Dawson. I have a number of questions for you.

You mentioned in your statement that some individuals were subject to the former conflict of interest code, but that they are not covered by the new act. Why did you not apply the new act to everyone?

3:55 p.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I did apply the act to everybody who was covered by the act. That's the short answer. There were some changes from the code to the act.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

I see. What are—

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

You do not make the act yourself.