Information & Ethics Committee on March 2nd, 2009

[Mary Dawson]

Yes, it would be easier to have discretion in some areas, but there are advantages to having clearer rules as well, which is why I have some focus on establishing guidelines so people know where I'm going. There's room for interpretation even within the four corners of the act as well, but it's the difficult cases. There are some instances, and I can't think of any off the top of my head, but here and there throughout the act there are places where a little more discretion might help, as with the summer students, for example.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Yes.

I note that there's a general five-year ban on lobbying for many former public office-holders or staff persons after they leave office. But I also note in the code--or it may be in the act, I'm not sure--that sometimes there are exceptions to the rule. Could you explain under what circumstances there would be an exception to that rule?

[Mary Dawson]

Actually, you're going to have a chance to speak to the lobbying commissioner in a little while. That's under the Lobbying Act, which I don't administer. She should speak to that.

[Russ Hiebert, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock—Cloverdale, BC]

Fair enough.

Mr. Chair, I'll share the balance of my time with Mr. Poilievre.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

You have four and a half minutes left.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Great.

Thank you very much for being with us, Ms. Dawson. At the outset, let me thank you for your work. I have found, as a public office-holder, that there's been a very big improvement in just the basic administration in terms of response times to the questions we regularly pose to get your advice, to set up our trusts, and so on. So congratulations on that.

On the question of the act versus its predecessor code, I'm wondering if you could tell me what the distinctions are between the former code for public officers and the present act as it relates to blind trusts.

[Mary Dawson]

I can't think of any particular distinction. The rules are pretty well the same.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

They're identical.

[Mary Dawson]

Yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

When were those rules established?

[Mary Dawson]

They would have been established in 2004, I think, when the code was established.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay.

You mentioned the limitation on gifts. You said $1,000 earlier. Did I hear that right?

[Mary Dawson]

That's the maximum for a gift you can receive as a public office-holder.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

And the maximum you can receive before being obliged to report a gift is $200?

[Mary Dawson]

Yes. But if it's under $200, it doesn't make it right, necessarily.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Right. Of course.

How have you found compliance with these rules so far?

[Mary Dawson]

With the gift rules?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Yes.

[Mary Dawson]

Gifts are very difficult to monitor, because I only know about them when somebody tells me about them. I can't go out and investigate everybody to see whether they've received gifts. I'm entirely reliant on their coming forward and telling me. And a great many people do; most people do. Most people, as I said, are very concerned that they're complying with the law.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Right.

[Mary Dawson]

But in fact there's no way for me to know whether I'm getting reports on all the gifts that are being received. I'm actually trying to do a bit of work on that, to figure it out. I've dealt with a few ministers' offices now. There was a delay in reporting gifts, a very noticeable delay, which came to light last summer in a newspaper article.

I've worked with several offices now to set up a system whereby every two weeks they report any gifts they've gotten. That has rectified the problem quite a bit, but there's still work to be done. I'm trying to figure out who else I ought to go and establish a system for. I don't know whether I....

You know, I have certain people who consistently report gifts. And there are only certain types of people who get gifts, actually. Usually they're prime ministers and so on, or people who are out on trips and what not. Probably there are subject areas where gifts are more likely, but I haven't finished figuring out what to do about that.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

You said in your remarks, “As I have often said, I have been very impressed with the dedication to the public interest that I have seen on the part of public officials, whether elected or appointed.” When you look at the ethical comportment of Canadian public office-holders of any political stripe, whether they be elected or appointed, how would you compare them in terms of the standards observed in written word and also in practice elsewhere in the world? How are we doing?

[Mary Dawson]

Well, so many different countries are at different stages of development in this world. In many countries, the whole problem is corruption, huge corruption. We don't really have that problem here in Canada. I get a number of visitors from various countries asking me about corruption, and they're speaking on a whole different level from what we're dealing with.

So generally speaking, I think we compare extremely favourably.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you very much.

I think the Liberals are going to pass on this.

I'll go to Mr. Plamondon right now.