Evidence of meeting #11 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was citizens.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Suzanne Legault  Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I call the meeting to order. This is meeting number 11 of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Our orders of the day are on our agreed upon project: proactive disclosure.

Before moving forward on that, colleagues, since I'm not sure whether members will be able to stay the full time, I want to advise you of the arrangements for witnesses for next week so that you can properly prepare.

On Tuesday we are having Minister Finley before the committee. She will be with us from 11 o'clock for at least an hour. We'll see how that goes.

For Thursday, we had asked for Sébastien Togneri. He has advised us that there is a conflict with another jurisdiction, and he has indicated that he will not be appearing before us as requested, because another matter is going on related to what we're doing. We may want to reconsider that, if necessary, but at this point Mr. Togneri will not be with us. We have a letter from the lawyer, who has given us reasons for which it would not be appropriate for him to appear. So I'm going to accept that at this point, unless the committee would like to discuss it further.

However, next Thursday we do have Patricia Valladao, who is the chief of media relations for HRSDC. She has requested that Mr. Peter Larose, who is the assistant deputy minister of the public affairs and stakeholder relations branch, also appear. She has suggested that the two of them appearing would ensure that all of the concerns of the committee would be better represented.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Excuse me, Mr. Chair, who did you say Patricia Valladao is?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

She's the chief of media relations for the department, HRSDC.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Okay.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

And she is named in the motion by Mr. Easter. She has recommended, also from that same area, Mr. Peter Larose, assistant deputy minister in the department. So those two people will be here on Thursday.

Finally, we had requested that Dimitri Soudas and Ryan Sparrow appear. They were named in the motion to appear. We had scheduled them for May 11.

Mr. Soudas has not confirmed. We're waiting for a confirmation. Mr. Sparrow has indicated to us that the minister is going to be speaking on behalf of the department. In his e-mail to us, he indicated that because the ministerial responsibility lies with the minister for her department and staff, and since Mr. Sparrow works for the minister, he would like to request that the minister appear to answer any questions in his place.

Mr. Sparrow, as members will know, did have some direct involvement in this matter, so I'm open... At this point I am going to request that Mr. Sparrow still appear, as he was specifically named. I'm sure a minister can speak for everybody in a department, but certain individuals who have had direct involvement in certain activities may have some information or details that committee members would like to pursue. So I'm going to respect the motion by Mr. Easter that was adopted by the committee, and I'm going to reaffirm that we would like to have him appear, notwithstanding his suggestion that the minister could answer the questions.

This is for the members' information so that they can plan their activities. I will attempt to keep all the members updated on these matters.

Mr. Siksay, go ahead on this matter.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Chair, will you be sharing the correspondence that you referred to this morning with the members of the committee?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Absolutely, if you would like.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Yes, please.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mr. Clerk, could you please circulate that?

They are not in both official languages; that's why I didn't circulate it. We will have it translated and circulated.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Thank you, Chair.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay, we're done.

Back to proactive disclosure. Our witness today, from the Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada, is Madam Suzanne Legault, interim Information Commissioner.

Welcome, Commissioner.

The commissioner has agreed to come to help us further our education on the whole matter of proactive disclosure and possibly give us some words of wisdom on how we might proceed with an enormous project if we were thinking we were going to somehow steer this entire process. That would be overly ambitious, I'm sure, but the commissioner has a presentation for us that I hope will give us the foundation we need to make good laws and wise decisions, as it were, in terms of planning our work plan, which has been drafted by the researchers.

Commissioner, I understand you're a little nervous about the fact that it might be a long presentation, but this is extremely important to us, and I know members will take an opportunity to stretch their legs if necessary and maybe go to the back of the room where there might be something they might want to see.

Having said that, Commissioner, please proceed.

11:20 a.m.

Suzanne Legault Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for inviting me.

Of course, if committee members and you feel that my presentation is too long, I am very flexible and can stop at any time to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you again for this opportunity to appear before you to discuss this very important subject of open government. It's really a tribute to this committee that it is studying this topic on how open government can best serve Canadians.

As interim Information Commissioner, I wish to discuss open government not as an expert in the fields of electronic dissemination of information or information technology, but rather, I wish to discuss it as a proponent of the view that it is urgent that government make a commitment to greater disclosure of its public information and imperative that it develop a comprehensive open government strategy to support it.

The committee has often heard testimony regarding the challenges of providing access to information pursuant to the Access to Information Act. How our law now handles accessing information is fundamentally reactive and reflects the traditional modus operandi of the public sector. It is reactive in the sense that access is granted mostly after someone asks for it.

By contrast, every day, we learn about new initiatives that transform reactive disclosure to the proactive mode. Proactive disclosure refers to an environment where information is routinely disseminated electronically, with the exception of that which the government must protect because it poses a risk to a public or private interest.

It is an environment where information can readily be made available to the public thanks to advances in technology. Proactive disclosure is an essential component of the broader concept of open government. Open government is predicated on a system in which government records are available to citizens in open standard formats that permit an unlimited use and re-use of the information. This facilitates public engagement and participation which, in turn, promotes greater transparency, accountability and trust in government.

Based on our reviews and our discussions with other jurisdictions that are leading the open government movement, successes have been based, I believe, on sets of well-defined principles. To lead the paradigm shift from reactive to proactive disclosure, and ultimately to open government, there must be a made-in-Canada strategy. The strategy must reflect the unique characteristics and informational needs of our own society. In this context, I offer five overarching principles for your consideration, which have been gleaned from the various international jurisdictions.

First, there must be a commitment at the top to lead this cultural change conducive to open government. At a minimum, this involves issuing a declaration on open government with clear objectives. The commitment also entails assigning responsibility and accountability for coordination, guidance, and deliverables. It requires prescribing specific timeframes.

Second, there should be ongoing and broad public consultations. Citizens should be encouraged to participate using electronic means. It is critical to determine what government information the public wants and how they want to receive it.

Third, information should be made accessible in open standard formats and rendered reusable. Information should be derived from various sources and integrated to reduce the silos inherent in bureaucratic structures.

Fourth, privacy, confidentiality, security, crown copyright, and, particularly in Canada, official language issues need to be addressed and resolved.

Finally, open government principles must be anchored in statutory and policy instruments.

It is important to stress, Mr. Chairman, that although our legislation emanates from a period prior to the advent of the personal computer, the BlackBerry, Google, Facebook, and Twitter, its purpose clause is nevertheless consistent with the concept of open government. In section 2 of the ATIA, it states that the

Act is intended to complement and not replace existing procedures for access to government information and is not intended to limit in any way access to the type of...information that is normally available to the general public.

The question is what meaning can we impart to these statements in 2010 given current technologies, the need to achieve public service efficiencies and the public's expectations of the role of government in leading the transformation to open government.

Clearly, there are no legislative impediments to advancing it. The concept is embedded in our information laws. The Access to Information Act anticipated elements of open government in its requirements to describe government programs, services and information holdings in a central register called Info Source to establish public reading rooms within institutions.

The Library and Archives of Canada Act and associated records management policies are based on the premise that sound information management practices enable departments to be more responsive and accountable to Canadians.

Further, Mr. Chairman, I think it's interesting to note that in his annual report to the Prime Minister, the Clerk of the Privy Council alluded to this paradigm shift when he acknowledged that the public service faces considerable pressures, such as the globalization of policy issues, the need for more collaborative decision-making, and the impact of ever-changing technologies. Mr. Wouters contended that the capacity of the public service to rethink the way we work—to plan, to reach out to others for good ideas, and to work together within and across departments—will sustain a high-performing public service.

In addition, it's interesting to note that the report to the Prime Minister, also from Mr. Tellier and Mr. Emerson, emulates the same ideas and promotes fostering the engagement of citizens in a collaborative development of policies and programs as a positive step for the government.

As a first step at the institutional level, each government organization needs to identify the opportunities and means to proactively disclose information. As a means of accomplishing this, the former Information and Privacy Commissioner of British Columbia made a recommendation to the special committee reviewing their own access to information legislation. He proposed that their act be amended to require public bodies to use prescribed access design principles in designing and adopting any information system or program.

The idea here, Mr. Chairman, is also an idea that I know is supported by the national archivist, Dr. Caron, in the sense that the disclosure of information has to be thought about at the beginning of the development of programs and policies so we think in terms of disclosure of information before we develop these programs and policies. This would not only result in more rapid responses to access to information requests, but would lead to direct public access to certain categories of the government's information holdings and facilitate the shift from reactive to proactive access to information.

So what stage are we at in Canada, and what lessons can we learn from colleagues in other jurisdictions? In Canada, there are various open government initiatives of different scopes that are occurring at different levels but without the benefits of central coordination and guidance. I would say this is the main difference between our jurisdiction and other international jurisdictions.

At the federal level, there may have been only very modest attempts at proactive disclosure. Almost ten years ago, the government issued a policy requiring all officials above a certain level to post, on-line, the specific details of their travel and hospitality claims. A few years later with the development of more sophisticated systems and programs, the posting of this information, along with other information including provisions in contracts and grants and contributions, is now done reasonably well by government institutions.

Unfortunately, in the fast-moving information world of 2010, these attempts to open up government information do not represent the wave of the present, much less the wave of the future.

However, there are real signs of progress. Natural Resources Canada offers free access to databases that once entailed substantial user charges. Its GeoConnections Discovery Portal is a metadata catalogue that enables users and data suppliers to access, evaluate, visualize, and publish Canadian geospacial and geoscience data products and web services.

Citizenship and Immigration Canada is now also providing public access to many of their massive immigration databases. I've sent the minister a letter of congratulations for this initiative because I thought it was a very good initiative. Their objective, Mr. Chairman, is to disseminate the most popular data sets to the public without requiring recourse to the Access to Information Act.

National Defence and the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency are making their disclosure logs of access to information requests available.

My office is also revamping its public website to include access disclosure logs, internal policy documents, and research and statistical data, which we know our stakeholders are interested in.

Several provincial governments have taken the lead in migrating their programs and services to online portals and rendering them interactive. British Columbia, for instance, has created a research data warehouse that draws information from multiple government sources, thereby removing data from their traditional silos. Newfoundland and Labrador developed the first Internet-based data retrieval system to view and analyze social and economic indicators of well-being.

In November 2009, Quebec's new regulation, the Règlement sur la diffusion de l'information et sur la protection des renseignements personnels, came into effect. It requires 15 categories of government information to be proactively disclosed to the public by means of the government's website. The categories include internal organizational charts, documents of public interest disclosed pursuant to access to information requests, and studies, research and statistical reports of interest to the public. The regulation encompasses a broad range of institutions from provincial ministries to municipalities, school boards and health and social service agencies.

In municipalities, there are a significant number of practical applications being developed by both the cities and citizens. For example, Edmonton, Nanaimo, Toronto and Vancouver have mounted online data catalogues containing information regarding council meetings, fire and rescue response reports, garbage collection and public transit schedules and building permit statistics. Many of these, such as property searches and restaurant sanitation reports, are supported by online search engines that allow the public to retrieve and manipulate the data. Ottawa is also moving forward to capitalize on new technologies to expand its service offerings.

It is at the grassroots level, however, where many of the most innovative initiatives are occurring. These initiatives are an indication of the types of information that Canadians actually want.

A recent Globe and Mail article entitled “If you won't tell us about our MPs, we'll do it for you” may be of interest to this committee. David Eaves, an internationally recognized expert in open government, described new websites mounted by what he calls digital democratic activists. He cited as an example openparliament.ca, which enables the public to see what members of Parliament say, explore how they vote, and search related press stories.

Another example is howdidtheyvote.ca. This site provides a breakdown of members of Parliament's statistics, including the number of words spoken in the session, the frequency with which members vote against their parties, and members' attendance records.

So you are all in the open government stance by virtue of these initiatives that have been done by individual Canadians in their own backyard.

There's a great deal to be learned from the experiences of other countries in implementing open government initiatives. During the past year, the United States launched its much anticipated open government initiative, the British government...under its “smarter government” umbrella, and the Australian Government 2.0 Task Force issued a comprehensive draft report. Significantly, the prominent features common to the inception and evolution of these initiatives, notably in the United States and the United Kingdom, are that they are based on strong leadership and broad public consultation and they are sustained by central repositories of data supported by commonly available tools to access and leverage the data sets. This is the new age of proactive disclosure.

The American open government initiative illustrates the impressive progress that can be achieved when it is being led by their President. In discussions these past few days with our American colleagues, they emphasized the value of leadership and commitment from the top. They referred to the necessity to have clear and unequivocal objectives, and stated that the government is opening doors and data to all citizens to promote transparency, participation, and collaboration.

Transparency is critical to provide citizens with information about what their government is doing so that it can, in turn, be held accountable. It encourages journalists, researchers, government officials, and the public to scrutinize and thereby improve how government works on behalf of citizens.

Participation is essential in that the government must actively solicit expertise from all sectors so that it makes policies with the benefit of the best information available.

Finally, there must be collaboration so that officials work together and with citizens as part of doing their job of solving national problems.

On a practical level, the open government initiative requires agencies to publish information online in a open format so that it can be retrieved, downloaded, indexed and searched by commonly used web search applications. An open format is one that is platform independent, machine readable and made available to the public without restrictions that would hamper re-use of that information.

Our colleagues also stressed the importance of setting firm milestones — stages, along with dates. The Obama administration established multi-year targets and an associated evaluation process to measure progress. The consultation process, the initial staged release of agency data sets and progress reports to the American people had to be completed by December 2009, only one year following the President's inauguration.

Leadership from the top also characterizes the British government's commitments as part of its smarter government initiative. It adopted public data principles based on the release of public data sets, which would be made available at no charge. The government promises to release more public information, including health, weather, and traffic data sets, under open licences that enable reuse, including commercial reuse. In fact, the British experience is instructive because it's somewhat different philosophically than the American or the Australian initiatives in that it's very much geared towards gaining efficiencies in public sector service delivery, and that's really very much the focus of the British initiative.

The Australian Government 2.0 Task Force issued its draft report on how to make government information more accessible and usable. The task force's starting premise is that public sector information is a national resource, a national asset, and that releasing as much of it on as permissive terms as possible will maximize its economic and social value and reinforce a healthy democracy. In fact, also an interesting point of the Australian task force is that it actually has some analysis in terms of cost savings in delivering open data to citizens, as opposed to having a reactive mode responsive to simply access to information requests. It also cites in its cost analysis some EU analysis.

It recommends that public sector information should be free, based on open standards, and freely reusable. Since Australian government data is subject to crown copyright restrictions similar to those in Canada, the task force recommends releasing government data on their Creative Commons distribution licence. This means that the government retains copyright but freely licenses the work for reuse with no need for further permissions or compensation and no need for legislative change.

In my view, Canada must move quickly to embrace open government and, in doing so, encourage citizen engagement, especially that of our younger generation. While detractors may claim that rapid adoption of open government poses unacceptable challenges, experience in the “trial and error“ approach in the United States has demonstrated that these challenges can be mitigated by a strategy that allows for adjustments and provides multiple channels for feedback.

In my view, the government should advance the transformation to open government as being in the best interests of this country and its people. The transformation can be founded on the principles of strong leadership, public consultations, enhanced accessibility and a commitment to resolve statutory and policy issues. It can build on the fact that Canada is one of the most connected countries in the world and use this fact as one of the major assets in order to increase government transparency.

In 2010 democracy, government efficiency, and national prosperity share the same core requirement: citizens, experts, and entrepreneurs must be able to easily access, interact with, and reuse current and relevant public domain data.

To quote from an excellent report compiled by Deloitte entitled Unlocking Government: How Data Transforms Democracy:

Government leaders have before them an opportunity to combine the resourcefulness of online citizens and entrepreneurs with the power of factual data to more effectively achieve their mission. In an information-driven age, the ability of governments to seize this opportunity may ultimately determine whether a government fails or succeeds.

Mr. Chairman, I and my office are pleased to assist this committee in this important task within the scope of our very limited mandate. This does not include a research mandate, but we will do everything that this committee requires of us to assist in this deliberation.

Again, thank you very much for the privilege to present you this rather lengthy presentation.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I think it was just right. Thank you, Commissioner. It certainly does give us a lot to think about, particularly the principles. I know in tab 2 of your handout that you gave the minister, you summarized the five principles to help government, which I think we have to really let sink in. If you have a good foundation for your work, what you build after that obviously is going to be more secure. I think the members will want to take this into account as we move forward.

We have some members who would like to engage you, so we're going to start with Madam Foote, please.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, and welcome back.

11:40 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Thank you for this very informative and thoughtful presentation this morning. As the chair stated, I think it gave us a lot to think about, certainly, as we undertake this review on proactive disclosure.

As I listened to you and followed you in your remarks, you talked a lot about leadership and the importance of leadership in making this happen. I'd like to ask you, from your perspective, how would you define leadership?

11:40 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

There has to be a commitment from the people who have decision-making power in terms of deciding that an open government strategy is part of the priorities of this government. Really, in my view, it has to come from the Prime Minister and the government. Also, it has to be then implemented by senior officials within each federal institution.

My staff actually spoke with some people in the United States in the last few days just to get a sense of how the open government directive was working in the United States. These are complex things to put in place. They said they are encountering strong reaction from federal institutions, and the fact that it's something that was put forward by the President is what allows them to move forward when they do have push-back at their institutional level.

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

Given your interest in this topic and the work you've been doing, have you had any discussions at all with this government on this particular initiative?

11:45 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

I've given this presentation to the Canada School of Public Service, and we've had more specific discussions with the Office of the Chief Information Officer, but more related to specific access to information, proactive disclosure issues, rather than this open government initiative.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

So you have not had a discussion about this topic with anyone in the PCO?

11:45 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

No, I have not.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

You haven't shared your information or your views with them?

11:45 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL

I'm interested in your comments, because you talk about what's happening in the U.S. under the leadership of the President. I know that when we were under government ops, when we were looking at the stimulus spending and trying to keep track of the amount of money that was being spent and the number of jobs being created, we looked at how it was being done in the U.S. It was very thorough and it was very timely, and you never had to wonder how the money was being spent, where it was being spent, or how many jobs were being created. That was totally contrary to what we faced or we saw here in Canada. We kept insisting on having a much more open, transparent, accountable reporting of the stimulus spending here, but it just didn't seem to garner the same type of support. There were always reasons why it couldn't be done, or explanations: “We're trying to”, or “We're working at it.”

But I would think when you have something that's being done so well in another jurisdiction, you don't need to recreate the wheel. I'm wondering what you found in terms of looking at what's happened in the U.S., Australia, and Britain, and if you would tell us, of these three jurisdictions, which one you think is well ahead of the game. Is there anything you think we might want to emulate on a go-forward basis?

11:45 a.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

It's a very good question, and really, Mr. Chairman, I'm always very leery to compare jurisdictions. I think we have to extract some of the good principles and some of the ways they're moving forward, but each has their own issues.

For instance, in the U.S. it went through very fast; there were very tight timelines. A lot of data sets have been put forward. Some of it has been very successful. Some of it has been the subject of criticism because the data is too difficult for ordinary citizens to actually understand. There was an audit recently of the American system, saying it's not as successful as they thought it should have been.

In Australia they've laid out really wonderful fundamental principles in the task force recommendations, but so far it sits with the Australian government. So we haven't really seen the development in Australia; we've seen the seminal thought piece.

In the U.K., as I said in my opening remarks, the impetus behind it is very different from the American impetus. They're doing it because they've had serious financial difficulties, and they're really looking at it to have and to develop a very cost-efficient public service for their citizens. That's why in my opening remarks I basically said it has to be a made-in-Canada strategy.

We mustn't forget that in Canada, and at the federal level, we have quite a high level of disclosure that's being done by various institutions on their websites. It's very piecemeal. Everybody does their own thing.

The difference between open government and what's going on right now in Canada is everyone discloses their own information. It's usually in a static format, i.e. it's good for information, but you can't really access the underlying data. Open government is different. Open government basically fosters a central repository of data. This data is categorized in certain ways, is accessible from a central point of entry, and can be reused to develop different applications.

In the context of the stimulus spending, for instance, the difference in the U.S. is that the data sets are available, so people can actually go into that website, get the data, and develop their own analysis, which sometimes is different from the government's analysis. That's the difference. The way we publish information is mostly in static format, except for Natural Resources Canada, which has these open government concept databases.