Evidence of meeting #11 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was citizens.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Suzanne Legault  Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

12:10 p.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

They're in the process at Treasury Board Secretariat of revamping all of their policy suite in terms of access to information, with guidelines and directives. They also have their records-keeping policy, which is relevant to this, because if you have proper records management and proper information management practices, it's a lot easier to proactively disclose information.

In fact, for instance, in our office we're planning to use our information management process to proactively disclose information once we have finalized documents, so that they're basically ready to go. Instead of waiting for an access to information request, we're going to deal with exemptions related to personal information and other issues and then disclose them proactively.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Shawn Murphy Liberal Charlottetown, PE

So you're saying that there's really no legislative or regulatory impediment; it's just an issue of policy to take the next step.

12:10 p.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

As I said, I haven't done the full spectrum of review on this, but in my view, certainly in terms of access to information and of information management, records keeping, and the Archives Act, privacy is going to be an issue, and security is going to be an issue, but I don't think we should consider that these issues are insurmountable.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Shawn Murphy Liberal Charlottetown, PE

I know there was a report card done recently, but it seems to me that this would really go to the performance of a department or an agency. Is this issue talked about? Is it elaborated in the departmental performance reports that are filed annually by the departments and agencies in Ottawa? Do they have a section dealing with how they are getting along in dealing with their management—I guess that's how I would classify it—of access to information?

12:15 p.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

There is an obligation under the Access to Information Act to publish an annual report on performance of access to information obligations, for each institution covered by the legislation.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Shawn Murphy Liberal Charlottetown, PE

I'm talking about the individual departmental performance reports from the departments and agencies.

12:15 p.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

I don't know that there is a specific requirement in the DPR for that. There is not one that I know of.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Shawn Murphy Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Just inform me how the system works. We've had some high-profile cases in which someone on a minister's staff has been involved in adjudicating or managing these access to information requests. I would have thought that the deputy minister, being in charge of the department, or the chief executive officer, being in charge of the agency, would have total control of this and that it wouldn't involve a political dimension. Can you just explain to me how that comes to be?

12:15 p.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure I understand the question. How what comes to be?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Shawn Murphy Liberal Charlottetown, PE

It's as to how it gets into the political domain. You have an access to information request. The deputy minister would be in charge of the management of the department and would have to process the request and deal with it in a legal manner.

How do the political staffers get involved with the type of information that's given, or when it's given, or how it's handled?

12:15 p.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

Mr. Chair, the political staffers have no authority under the Access to Information Act. They have no delegation of authority under the Access to Information Act to make any decisions about access to information.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Shawn Murphy Liberal Charlottetown, PE

In other words, they shouldn't be involved in the process. Is that what you're saying?

12:15 p.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

They can review matters for information purposes, but they certainly should not be involved and they have no legal authority to be involved in making decisions about disclosure of information under the Access to Information Act.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

Shawn Murphy Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Thank you very much.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mr. Rickford, please.

April 29th, 2010 / 12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Suzanne, for visiting us again and for providing some great information.

I'm pleased to hear, as you said earlier, that overall you felt like our government departments were quite open. There is still more work to be done, and I think what we're really talking about here at committee is a process in terms of how we can get there.

I have some questions on information, but given the richness of some of the questions that have been asked earlier, I want to fill out some space on them.

I was particularly struck by some comments earlier around the Freedom of Information Act in the United States, the open government regime. You alluded to some problems there. I appreciate that there were different reasons, first of all, why the United States, the U.K., and Australia got to where they're headed by way of policy or formal legislation. I'm reading from tab 4, from the materials you gave today. It's my understanding here that according to the report on FOIA—that's the Freedom of Information Act—fewer than a third of the 90 federal agencies that process requests for information have significantly changed their practices since Obama's initial order. The report also found a wide variety of changes in each agency's decision to release or deny access to information. So there are clearly some challenges there, I suppose, to the overly favourable characterization that my colleague had earlier.

Furthermore, the Washington Post analysis published in January 2010 found that more people have sued the government for access to federal records in the first year of the Obama administration—more than 319 lawsuits—than in the final two years of the previous administration. So clearly, while the language has been typically colourful, as it tends to be from that particular President, there is still a lot of work to be done on the ground with respect to access to information. We want to be sure, as a committee, then, that we study the challenges that the United States have faced and try to overcome them. That said, I do appreciate that not all of Obama's ideas are great with respect to access to information, and this committee should be here to help Canadians get access to that.

I might preface my question by a simple observation. While perhaps in the United States they were busy loading up what they intend to do, we were busy getting shovels in the ground. If anybody disputes that, they can come to the great Kenora riding and see holdups with road delays and bridges under repair, schools being built, and just an overall kind of “get it done” sort of theme. I have been busy loading that information into a massive spreadsheet, which I hope to make available to the public on my website, which clearly demonstrates the status of all of the announcements and the work we're doing. That will benefit, clearly, not just my own constituents...

There was an infrastructure stimulus fund secretariat...he was disguising himself; he was actually a Liberal MP who was calling around to communities in my riding to get information about the status of certain projects. So he, too, instead of having to disguise himself, will be able to get that information. Again, we're helping with that.

My question is this, then, leading in, and it's a rather lengthy segue, and I apologize, Mr. Chair.

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I was wondering if the sign was going to come out, the government's action plan.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Given the length of the presentation, I can't confine myself to a couple of quick, rapid-fire questions.

What is it about too much information...? Let's look at the implications of the problems of more information being proactively disclosed, or perhaps the types of information. Do you have any specific concerns around that?

12:20 p.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

Mr. Chairman, I think this is a very good question. If we start overloading people with information, it becomes not useful.

One of the concepts in the open government plan in the U.S., which I think is something that's really interesting to look at when we look at disclosure of information, is that they have the concept of high-value information. They're not saying any information; they talk about high-value information. They describe it as being information that can be used to “increase agency accountability and responsiveness; improve public knowledge of the agency and its operations; further the core mission of the agency; create economic opportunity; or respond to need and demand as identified through public consultation”.

In the open government initiative, in answer to your colleague's question as well, the main difference is that it uses technology to become interactive with citizens. The purpose is to gain knowledge and to develop better policies and programs through this interaction. What we're seeing develop at the grassroots level and at the municipal level, in particular in Canada, is that there's a strong desire among Canadians to interact like that.

In the Deloitte piece, there's a really interesting example of young Ontarians and how they responded to the Ontario government's desire to pass new legislation for young drivers. People think that young people are not connected to what the government is doing, but they received hundreds of thousands of responses from these young people, who wanted to comment on this legislation, through social media. That's what open government is about.

It's not that it's not happening in Canada; it is. In various areas, as I mentioned, it is happening. What's not happening is a coordinated, concerted effort by the government to say that we're embracing this--

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

It's the cost.

12:20 p.m.

Interim Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Suzanne Legault

--as a way of doing our government business.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

It's sort of a template...

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you.

Madame Thi Lac, s'il vous plaît.

That's only six minutes. But for commercials, I give a discount rate.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Was it five minutes and you gave me six minutes?

12:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Yes.

I didn't charge you for the full amount of the commercial.