Information & Ethics Committee on May 4th, 2010

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Mr. Chair, if I might correct the image there, as I explained, my office is copied on every media request that comes in. Once the media request comes in, it is then sent to the appropriate policy or program people for their input, for an answer, and that answer is developed and approved within the department.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Minister, you also say that you remove material that's not relevant. You stated that, and I suppose I'm concerned.

I say things I shouldn't at times, and Freudian slips happen, but you said you “interfere”. You didn't mean to say that, I know, but when someone--a reporter or whoever, and I don't care if it's a reporter--asks for information, I think most reasonable people looking at having transparency in government would think they could just ask a simple question and not have to go through a plethora of gatekeepers.

At the end of the day, why would your political staff be involved in removing material? Is that material being changed because of political concerns? We'd have to see the initial drafts of those missives to understand that; I don't think we have access to that material, but do you understand why people's perception would be that there are gatekeepers and that they're not public servants, but in fact political staff?

That's not right.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Mr. Chair, I might suggest that the honourable member has actually just answered the question for me in saying that people don't want to have to go through a whole pile of words to get at the information they want. We try to make sure the information requested is the information provided, and that people don't have to wade through a lot of things that aren't germane to the question asked.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

No, what I actually said was that they don't want to go through political gatekeepers just to get an answer to a question as simple as, “How much are you spending on advertising?”

In fact, contrary to what you're saying, Minister, what I'm saying is that people shouldn't have to have their question laundered by people who are political staff. I'm sure Mr. Sparrow is a good staff person; I'm not concerned with him. I'm concerned about the process through which a question has to go through a whole system to make sure everything is cleansed and clean. People in this town are worried about that, and I've heard from them--trust me.

I don't think it's fair, and it's abuse of political power to make sure that every single missive that goes out has the blessing of the minister's office because maybe there's a concern about the political perception.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Mr. Chair, I can respond to that in a couple of ways.

First, as the Government of Canada's communications guidelines point out, the minister is the prime spokesperson for the department. That is a responsibility that I carry, whether it's a routine request for a number or whether it's a much more complicated or sensitive issue. We make every effort to ensure that the information going out to a media inquiry is accurate, complete, and prudent.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Is it only your office that can do that?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

These people are acting in accordance with their terms of reference, with their delegated authorities--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Public servants are as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order. Sorry, Mr. Dewar--

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

--on my authority and on my behalf.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Your time is up.

Go ahead, Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Thank you for being here.

You are quite correct in pointing out that you are the only one at HRSDC who is accountable to Parliament, and ultimately responsible, through the House of Commons and regular elections, directly to the Canadian people. I appreciate your showing that responsibility by being here today and answering questions.

I want to examine some of the facts of this story. I'm going to read from an April 13 article in The Globe and Mail:

Asked about his handling of the file yesterday, Mr. Sparrow said “an appropriate response was provided by the department,” because the advertising campaign was under way at the time and the final cost--almost identical to the department's projection--was provided three weeks later.

Does this mean the response to the original question as to the cost of the ad campaign was made public?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

As soon as the actual costs were known at the end of the campaign, yes, those costs were provided to the reporter.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay.

I'm stumped now. I don't know exactly where we go with the questioning, because....

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Take your time.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

If this is what passes for scandal these days, I think we've come a heck of a long way since the previous government. Information was sought, and within three weeks it was provided.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Yes, it was, and in a responsible and prudent way.

It was impossible, to my mind, to provide actual numbers of the campaign before the campaign was concluded. For many reasons the cost of the campaign can vary up or down, depending on a wide range of circumstances. The question that was put to the department was, “What are the actual costs?” Those costs were not available at the time because the campaign had not been completed. When it was completed, those costs were provided within three weeks.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Right. To the credit of Mr. Leblanc—I believe he was the reporter seeking the information—he was quick off the mark; he was seeking information as promptly as possible, and that is the hallmark of a competitive and free media, where reporters are trying to get information to the public as quickly as possible.

He sought the costing of an advertising program two days before that program was completed. Is that accurate?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Yes, I believe those are the dates.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

He sought it on February 25, and the campaign was to wrap up—

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

At the end of February.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

—on February 28. So two or three days before the end of the campaign, he was seeking the costs. There's nothing wrong with taking that kind of initiative, nor is there anything wrong with the government responding by asking for a few weeks to ensure the costing is accurate, the information is correct, and of course you will have the information.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

You're exactly right.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay.

Can you talk to us about the protocol for releasing the costing of government advertising campaigns?