Information & Ethics Committee on May 4th, 2010

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

It varies. I don't know what other departments do. I know what is done in ours.

Advertising is released in a number of ways. There's an annual report to Parliament; everything is there. We disclose our own numbers year-end as well.

Normally there is a period of time after the end of the campaign when adjustments can be made to the account, and that period is 90 days. So strictly speaking, according to our contracts that Public Works and Government Services administers--and they handle all the ad placement--the final numbers would be available 90 days after the end of the campaign.

Frankly, I thought we were rather responsive in waiting to the end of the campaign to get pretty reasonably accurate numbers, certainly much more accurate than would have been available to us prior to that, and to do that within three weeks.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

So normally it would be three months, but you provided it within three weeks?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

That's correct.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

All right. So this is an example of where you beat the deadline by about 70%, and you provided the data to the reporter in question?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Correct.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay. Now that 90 days has gone by, do we have any confirmation that the numbers were precise, or have there been some adjustments since that time?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'm sorry, I don't have that information. I believe they came in very close.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

All right. When are these ad campaigns—

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

And we're not at the end of the 90 days yet.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

The degree of transparency we have is interesting. Normally this data would be released within 90 days, but during that time you've already had it released, and a minister shows up at a committee to explain the information before the 90-day timeframe has even been completed?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I think we've come an awfully long way in this country, that this degree of transparency is being achieved.

So we have in this country a system whereby advertising costs are proactively disclosed to Parliament, as it is?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Yes, we do.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

There's a year-end summary, there are our own departmental numbers as well, and other mechanisms, so....

There is full disclosure here, and according to our policies and procedures, everything was done in a responsible and prudent manner to make sure that Canadians, whose hard-earned tax dollars go to pay for these programs, get the benefit. And when they ask about it, we measure not just how much was spent, but also the effectiveness.

In the case of these advertisements, yes, the objective ACET evaluation showed they were extremely effective in reaching our target market, those Canadians who were either out of work and looking for our help or who were in a vulnerable position.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

There doesn't seem to be any question about value of money.

I'm out of time, so I'll just conclude by asking this. Can the minister tell us whether she's aware of any country in the world where government releases the cost of an advertising campaign before the campaign is completed?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'm not aware of the approaches in other countries.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I wonder if other members of the committee would know that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Madam Foote, please.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I'm having a little difficulty here. You said that things had been done right, when you had a chance to examine what happened in the department. You had initially said that you would take a look at the example of interference. I assume you must have thought there was interference. But you said that when you investigated, things had been done right.

The Prime Minister's Office responded to the incident by calling on political aides to respect the government's commitment to transparency and allow the bureaucracy to do its work. This was following a second incident within government. A staffer at Public Works Canada intervened to stop bureaucrats from releasing a report to the Canadian Press.

I'm curious about that, because on the one hand you said things were done right, and yet the Prime Minister's Office was involved. They said we can't have this interference and it must be stopped because of the need to adhere to transparency and accountability.

You then said the figures were not released because the advertising campaign was under way and the information was not available. Yet the bureaucrats who calculated the value of the advertising campaign were prepared to answer the question that same day. It was Mr. Sparrow who told them to hold off, and he said they weren't going to give any numbers. But three weeks later the figures were released, and they were almost identical to the information the bureaucrats had compiled.

I find your excuse a little hard to take. It strikes me as very strange. On the surface, it looks like there was something to hide and you were probably embarrassed about the money that was being spent on partisan advertising.

I'm getting two messages. One is from you and one is from the Prime Minister's Office. How is it that you have one story and the Prime Minister's Office has another story?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Mr. Chair, if I might clarify something here, the advertisements were government advertising. The Government of Canada was promoting programs that the Government of Canada had approved. It was on financing to help Canadian workers and Canadians who had lost their jobs become aware of the new programs, extended programs, and benefits available to them. I want to make sure we all understand this was government programming by the Government of Canada. Let's understand that to start with.

Secondly, I'm not aware of the inner workings of Public Works or what may or may not have happened there. But I know that when we had the media asking for the actual numbers on an advertising campaign that was incomplete, it was prudent to wait until the end of the campaign to provide those numbers.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Are you suggesting that the bureaucrats weren't doing the prudent thing by coming out with a number that was readily available to give to the media?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Mr. Chair, the question was on actual numbers. I'm not aware that one can determine what the actual numbers are until an event has occurred. Had we been asked for estimates, it would've been a different question. We were not asked for estimates; we were asked for actual numbers.

We wanted to make sure we responded with actual numbers, which can only be done after the event. It was done after the event, in less than three weeks, whereas strictly speaking, it could conceivably have taken 90 days. I'd say that's pretty transparent and responsive.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

I'd like to go back again to the incident with Mr. Sparrow. I understand that, according to the media, a tense exchange of e-mails took place between Mr. Sparrow and the bureaucrats. Can you provide us with that exchange of e-mails?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

It has already been publicly released.