Information & Ethics Committee on May 11th, 2010

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order. This is meeting number 14 of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Our orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h)(vi), are a study on allegations of interference in access to information requests.

I'd like to advise the committee that the clerk has had conversations with Mr. Soudas, who is to appear before us today. Mr. Soudas has a very busy schedule and was concerned about coming here this morning, having to sit for the whole meeting, and not being able to appear. He wanted some certitude about how he could use his time.

I've given him the undertaking that we will suspend any matters going on at the committee no later than noon and will bring him in as a witness to hear from him for the last hour of our meeting. Or, should this part with our first witness terminate earlier, we will contact Mr. Soudas to come down to the meeting so that we use the maximum amount of our time.

We will start now with our witnesses. We have appearing Mr. Sébastien Togneri, former parliamentary affairs director, Department of Public Works and Government Services. He's accompanied by his lawyer, Jean-François Lecours, a lawyer from Beauvais Truchon.

Mr. Togneri, I want to simply remind you that you are still under oath and that you can consult with your lawyer but he is not permitted to address the committee. I'd also like to reaffirm, as you know, that anything you say before this committee cannot be used against you in any other judicial proceedings.

I'd also like to confirm to you and to the committee that all parties that I'm aware of have received copies of the letter from the Information Commissioner, dated yesterday, which addresses your situation. I think it speaks for itself. I think we can proceed on the basis that parliamentary privilege permits this committee to proceed with questioning of the witness.

That said, we're going to move immediately to the first round.

Mr. Easter, please.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You did mention the letter from the Information Commissioner.

So I would hope that today, Mr. Togneri, that we indeed can get some pretty straightforward answers. We need to go back to some questions that were asked at the last meeting.

At this committee you indicated that you recalled participating in meetings with the Prime Minister's Office's issues management branch. With regard to ATIP, you stated that you recalled being told that “we should be vigilant...do our job and review the access to information requests...”.

When you intervened in the information request, did you believe that you had the authority from the PMO's issues management department to involve yourself in that access to information process?

[Sébastien Togneri, Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual]

I assume you're talking about the specific ATIP.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

That you asked to be unreleased, that one, or, for that matter, any others.

[Sébastien Togneri]

No. Issues management.... When I said that issues management asked us to do our job, what they asked of us was, because we get ATIPs as information prior to their release, that we review the ATIPs and that we be ready to respond to questions, be they from media or questions that may be asked in the House.

So issues management don't ask us to intervene; they ask us to review the information and either go to communications or to communications people and ask them to create lines that can be used in the response of any question. But they never asked us to, you know, withhold information or to stop information. No.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

So did they give you any advice, then, or information, on how to negotiate or persuade ATIP officers to release less information or delay the release of information?

[Sébastien Togneri]

No, that would not be the case. I would again say that issues management would ask us to be prepared for issues that may come up as a result of release of access to information files.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Did you get any advice on providing the PCO or the PMO with regard to intervening in the access to information request?

[Sébastien Togneri]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I'm not exactly sure what the question means....

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Restate it, please.

[Sébastien Togneri]

Well.... Or maybe if you could be more specific...? I'm not sure what you mean.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Yes. Were you asked.... On access to information requests and in this case where you intervened and 137 pages became 30--I just forget the number of pages--were you asked to provide that information to PCO or PMO in terms of what was happening?

[Sébastien Togneri]

I never informed...well, I would never inform PCO. I don't have any contacts at PCO. But I never advised PMO on this ATIP file--

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Would you--

[Sébastien Togneri]

--so I guess the answer would be no. There was no advice. I never informed them on that.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

How many times would you have ordered a document requested under ATIP to be withheld or less information provided? Do you have any idea on those numbers?

[Sébastien Togneri]

I don't have the delegated authority to do that, so....

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

My last question, then, Mr. Chair.

Guy Giorno, the Prime Minister's chief of staff, appeared before this committee and was asked about instructions from the issues management branch no fewer than nine times, and at no point did Mr. Giorno state that exempt staff were to be vigilant requesting ATIP requests. He did say “political staff...are not told to do anything related to an access to information request”.

It therefore appears that your statements to this committee and those of Mr. Giorno place you and the chief of staff to the Prime Minister in contradictory positions. Can you square that circle for us?

[Sébastien Togneri]

I don't think they are contradictory. He might not have used the same language as I did at my last committee appearance, but again, issues management is.... We discuss issues, and if an ATIP is going to be an issue, then it's discussed. There's no strategy.... There was never.... As far as I know, there was never any strategy to delay or obstruct ATIPs. It was simply.... Issues management is simply there to make sure that we're ready to respond to issues that may arise in the media or the House or wherever. So I don't see how we contradict each other.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Okay. Thank you.

I'm going to encourage questioners and the answers to be crisp. This is taking a little bit long....

But I'm going to move now to Madame Freeman, please.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Togneri.

I want to ask you a question about your responsibilities further to your mandate. Do you know Tom Makichuk?

[Sébastien Togneri]

Yes.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

What were his duties?

[Sébastien Togneri]

I think he is director of access to information at the Department of Public Works and Government Services.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Did you have dealings with him involving access to information requests?