Information & Ethics Committee on May 25th, 2010

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Well, I'm speaking to everybody here. If we don't--

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Well you're looking at me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Well, I'm looking at you because—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Look over there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

He was having tremors, for crying out loud. He was shaking.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We're dealing with interference in terms of the access to information, and the allegations are quite serious and the penalties are quite serious, so I want to refocus members and the witness to the matter before us.

Minister, we agreed that you would be pertinent to the matter before us. You have to do your role and I think the committee members will have to do theirs, but I'm not going to.... If someone tries to goad you into going somewhere else, don't answer; we'll move somewhere else. Okay?

Madam Freeman, please.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I'd like to comment on what Mr. Baird just said. I find it quite astonishing for Mr. Baird to insinuate that the committee is trying to intimidate witnesses by asking political staffers to discuss access to information practices in the Prime Minister's Office. As I expected, the situation is turning ugly.

Mr. Chair, once again I would like to move a motion that before we hear from Mr. Baird, we decide how we are going to deal with the fact that Mr. Dimitri Soudas declined our request to appear before the committee this morning. We have yet to decide how we are going to handle this matter. It is important for Quebeckers and for Canadians that the committee shed some light on access to information at the ministerial level—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I think Mr. Poilievre and all parliamentarians on this committee are doing a fine job. I'd like to congratulate the opposition members as well as Mr. Baird who is here this morning.

However, the one person we need to hear from is Mr. Dimitri Soudas. I'm asking that—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Chair, a point of order does take precedence over this.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

The motion would allow us to decide—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Right. It is a point of order, though.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

—what to do about Mr. Soudas being a no-show this morning. What are we going to do about this witness, who is an adult? He is 25 years old and responsible for his actions. He has an obligation to appear, just like any other witness who is called before the committee. I don't think Mr. Soudas enjoys any special status that would exempt him from having to appear.

Therefore, once again, I would like to move my motion. I would like the committee to come to a decision about Mr. Soudas before hearing from Mr. Baird.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I want just to get the—

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I'd like you to call a vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Yes, I understand.

I want to get the motion clear. The member had the floor, and she's entitled to make a motion.

My understanding, Madame, is that what you're proposing is that the consideration of the witness now before us cease, and that we move to dealing with the issue of the non-appearance of Mr. Soudas.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Precisely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Exactement. So that's the motion you're moving?

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

A point of order, Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

With due respect to Madam Freeman, whose work I do respect before this committee, that motion is out of order. It is out of order according to House of Commons Procedure and Practice, Second Edition, 2009, page 1049.

This motion seeks to overturn a ruling of the chair. The chair has already ruled, and that ruling has been sustained. So I move to sustain the chair's ruling once again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

In fact, Mr. Poilievre, the decision of the chair was sustained and we proceeded, and we are now into this. This is a new issue. Since we are not making, in the member's view, progress on the matter before the committee, the member has made this motion that we cease this particular witness at this time and move forward with the consideration of actions for the non-appearance of Mr. Soudas before the committee this morning.

Mr. Poilievre, that's my ruling--that the motion is in order.

We have a list here. Madame Thi Lac, on the motion. You're okay?

On the motion, Mr. Poilievre?