Information & Ethics Committee on June 1st, 2010

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Just a moment. The chair is in the middle of a question. Just a second and I'll get to you.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Point of order, Chair.

Whose time are you using at this point in time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I'm using the chair's time because I'm asking for clarification to an answer. Okay? Thank you.

Now, the question as I heard it was what authority did Mr. Togneri have to require the unreleasing of the document? And I think from your opening statement and from other statements, political staff don't have that authority. So what is the answer to that question?

[Tom Makichuk]

Mr. Chair, I can answer that at the time I was not aware of what Mr. Togneri's authorities were, having just recently arrived in the department. But what I do know today is that Mr. Togneri did not have any delegated authority under the Access to Information Act in Public Works and Government Services Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you for that clarification.

Mr. Laframboise, please.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I will put my question to you, Mr. Makichuk.

Earlier, you talked about the person who challenged your decision. Finally, you were the one who made the decision to accept the request and to send the 137 pages to the media. Did you make this decision?

[Tom Makichuk]

The decision to disclose the documents was made by a member of my staff, Christian Lefebvre, who was a delegated authority to make disclosures under the Access to Information Act.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Good.

You said that there was a deputy minister... You had a meeting. As Ms. Brennan told us earlier, in the case of a sensitive document, you would have probably submitted it to the cabinet. Is that in fact what you did?

[Tom Makichuk]

Yes, that's correct. In Public Works and Government Services Canada, as with other government institutions, there are some disclosure packages that are circulated as a heads-up so that the department can be prepared for their disclosure. So in this particular case--

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

All right.

What is the name of the deputy minister who asked questions?

[Tom Makichuk]

There was an associate deputy minister, and it does not circulate to the associate deputy minister but to someone in the associate deputy minister's office. In this particular case it was Katia Dalpé-Charron.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

This person asked questions and asked you to get the document back. And you did this. You ran to the mailroom to retrieve the document, right?

[Tom Makichuk]

Katia had contacted me urgently and asked for my assistance with the situation. And I decided, with a member of my staff, with the departmental security officer, and with the director responsible for the mailroom, to enter the mailroom.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

You retrieved your document, correct?

[Tom Makichuk]

In the course of the search of the mailroom, the unstamped envelope was retrieved.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Then, for 82 days, you held on to the document and worked. Initially there were 137 pages, but 30 pages were made public. You provided a censured version that was made public.

Who made the decision to censure the document?

[Tom Makichuk]

The legal decision was made by the delegated authority on the file, who again was Christian Lefebvre of my staff.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

He is the one who authorized the first uncensored version. You are telling me that the same individual decided to censure the document? There must certainly have been somebody who told him to censure it or to remove the pages.

[Tom Makichuk]

Yes. This particular request had not followed the normal path in Public Works and Government Services Canada, and there was an interest to first brief up to my director general and then again to my assistant deputy minister, and the decisions, as I understand it, were rendered at that level.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Who made the decision? Name the person, please.

[Tom Makichuk]

I was not present at the meeting where the decision was made, but I was advised that the direction came from Caroline Weber. Caroline Weber is the assistant deputy minister of corporate services, policy and communications branch.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Were you involved in any of the steps of this decision-making? Were you involved or did you let your staff look after it?

[Tom Makichuk]

I had an involvement in the sense that I had begun to draft a briefing note that would explain the situation that had occurred and the various options for moving forward.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

You drafted the first note... Someone must certainly have ordered this. Who is your superior? To whom do you report?

[Tom Makichuk]

At the time the note was drafted, I was reporting to Sylvie Séguin-Brant, director general, executive secretariat.