Evidence of meeting #26 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbyists.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Shepherd  Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Bruce Bergen  Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I would like to call this meeting to order.

I extend to everyone a warm welcome.

Colleagues, this meeting has been called to receive the annual report of the Commissioner of Lobbying for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2010. That report has been tabled in Parliament. To deal with it, we have us with us today the Commissioner of Lobbying, Karen Shepherd. She's accompanied by the deputy commissioner, René Leblanc, and senior counsel Bruce Bergen. On behalf of the committee, I want to welcome you Ms. Shepherd, Mr. Leblanc, Mr. Bergen.

First we're going to hear the opening comments from the commissioner. The floor is yours.

3:35 p.m.

Karen Shepherd Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I am pleased to be here today to discuss my 2009-2010 annual report as well as the recent amendments to the Designated Public Office Holder Regulations.

I am accompanied by Mr. René Leblanc, the Deputy Commissioner of Lobbying, and by Mr. Bruce Bergen, my senior legal counsel.

This past year has been one of great activity for my office. I have improved the overall management of the office by realigning all the corporate functions under a single executive. Further improvements have been made to the Registry of Lobbyists to make it simpler and easier to use for registrants who disclose their lobbying activities. It is also easier for those who are searching the registry to obtain information on the activities of registered lobbyists.

I have targeted my outreach in education efforts toward lobbyists, public office holders, parliamentarians, and various stakeholders to inform them about the requirements of the Lobbying Act and the lobbyists' code of conduct.

Finally, we continue to make progress in streamlining our approach to compliance, so I can keep pace with the growing volume of enforcement activities.

At my last appearance I indicated my registration team was engaged in a backlog blitz to eliminate what was left of the transitional pending registrations.

I am pleased to report that my team's efforts are showing great results. The number of pending registrations is at about one hundred and turnaround times continue to improve.

This is the best situation we have been in since the coming into force of the legislation in 2008.

In addition, we have implemented a new telephone management system to improve our ability to respond to inquiries on a timely basis. Work has also commenced on developing service standards for our response times for both approving registrations and responding to inquiries from lobbyists and the public.

As you may know, I recently tabled an amended annual report for 2009-10. At my last appearance I indicated that the number of registered lobbyists had stabilized at around 3,500. However, as a result of a coding error, the statistical reports failed to include new in-house lobbyists in the number of registered lobbyists from July 2008. The number of registered lobbyists is actually closer to 5,000.

Having said this, let me assure you that all registered lobbyists were properly captured by the registry and the information pertaining to their lobbying activities was always available for public consultation through the registry. The statistical reports have since been corrected and my office continues to conduct rigorous quality assurance testing of the registry to ensure it produces accurate statistics.

In the last year, in terms of my education and outreach mandate, I met with senior officials of the 20 most lobbied federal institutions to inform them and discuss the application of the act. I also commenced a second round of meetings at the ministerial level.

I continue to believe that by informing lobbyists, public office holders and the public about the Lobbying Act, greater compliance is achieved.

For this reason, since April, I expanded my education program to reach out to people in various regions of the country, including lobbyists' groups, public office holders and academia.

On the compliance side, in 2009-10 my office verified the activities of nearly 300 individuals, corporations, and organizations after learning that they may have been engaged in lobbying activities. We found that 90% of them were properly registered. Most of the remaining 10% were not performing registrable lobbying activities as described in the act.

Over 400 monthly communication reports have been verified and confirmed by designated public office holders. Only a small percentage of them contained errors, many of them clerical in nature and others resulting from a misunderstanding of the requirements.

This past year I initiated 16 administrative reviews to look into alleged breaches of the Lobbying Act or the lobbyists’ code of conduct. On the ongoing caseload, ten administrative review reports were submitted to me for consideration. I initiated three investigations.

The act requires that I refer files to the police when I have reasonable grounds to believe that there has been a breach of the act. Four files were referred to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

The challenge for my office is to complete as many reviews and investigations as we open during the year.

As I said at my last committee appearance, and for the benefit of new members, the Lobbying Act instructs me to conduct investigations in private. Therefore, I cannot comment on specific cases, nor will I confirm or deny that I am looking into a file.

Let me now turn to the recent amendments of the Designated Public Office Holder Regulations. For the purposes of the Lobbying Act, federal public office holders are virtually any employee of the federal government, whether elected or appointed.

In July 2008 the act introduced a subcategory of designated public office holders, which includes officials responsible for high-level decision-making in government. On September 20 of this year, this subcategory was expanded, through regulations, to include members of Parliament, senators, and the staff working in the office of the leader of the opposition in both the House and the Senate who have been appointed pursuant to subsection 128(1) of the Public Service Employment Act.

Members of Parliament have always been public office holders under the Lobbying Act. If lobbyists needed to register to talk to you prior to your becoming a designated public office holder, they are still required to do so. Conversely, those who, prior to September 20, did not need to register when they met with you are no more required to register now if the circumstances are the same.

I would like to take this opportunity to say that under the Lobbying Act, compliance does not always require a registration. For example, corporations and organizations may conduct some lobbying activities and are still not be required to file a registration under the Lobbying Act if they do not meet the “significant amount of duties” test. This test has long established 20% of the duties of a lobbyist as the threshold for in-house registration.

It is important to remember that volunteers and private citizens are not required to register their lobbying activities because they are not paid to do so.

In addition, members of other levels of government and members of an aboriginal government or an Indian band council do not have to register when communicating with federal public office holders.

Finally, certain communications, such as requests for information and oral or written submissions to parliamentary committees, are exempt from registration.

So what does it mean to be a designated public office holder?

When a registered lobbyist has an oral, arranged communication about a registerable subject matter with a designated public office holder, most of these communications must be disclosed by filing a monthly communication report. The registry has been designed to process large quantities of transactions, so the additional volume of monthly communication reports is not expected to be a problem.

As I previously indicated, the act gives the commissioner the ability to confirm the accuracy of monthly communication reports. As designated public office holders, you may therefore be approached by my office to confirm such reports. Although there is no requirement on your part to keep records of your communications with lobbyists, I encourage you to do so as a best practice.

The Lobbying Act introduced a five-year prohibition from lobbying for designated public office holders once they leave office. This prohibition now applies to you. As a result, you will not be able to work as a consultant lobbyist nor be employed to lobby on behalf of a not-for-profit organization when you leave office. However, the act allows you to be employed as an in-house lobbyist by a corporation, but only if lobbying does not constitute a significant part of your duties.

The Lobbying Act provides me with the power to grant exemptions to the five-year prohibition if granting an exemption would not be contrary to the spirit of the Lobbying Act. To date, I have received sixteen applications and have only granted three based on exceptional circumstances.

In closing, I would like to touch briefly on the issue of rule 8 of the lobbyists' code of conduct. Rule 8 pertains to placing a public office holder in a conflict of interest. In August I supplemented my November 2009 guidance about rule 8 with some clarifications about the risk of creating a real or apparent conflict of interest when lobbyists get involved in political activities.

Political and lobbying activities are both legal and legitimate. However, it is when the two intersect that the appearance of a conflict of interest may be created, if not a real one.

My advice is not intended as a prohibition for lobbyists who wish to engage in political activities, but rather that they should be mindful of the public perception that political activities may create when subsequently performing lobbying activities.

Mr. Chair, this concludes my remarks. Thank you for your attention.

I would now welcome your questions.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Ms. Shepherd.

We're now going to go to the first round, seven minutes each.

Mr. Easter.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I might mention, in beginning, that I hope we can deal later with the motion I tabled with the committee, prior to this meeting being over. I gave notice at the last meeting.

On the changes to the Lobbying Act affecting MPs, basically it does get somewhat complicated. And we're all affected by that because sometimes we don't know who's a real lobbyist and who's not. So we're trying to determine in our own office what records to keep on people as they come in. So this specific question relates to that area. If it is a known lobbyist and they just happen to pick up the phone and call you for a three-minute conversation on a question, does that have to be recorded?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

If the individual calls you and is lucky enough to just get you right away on the phone....

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Well, some of them do, through channels.

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

Then the way I would answer that is this. Are you a designated public office holder? Yes. Are they communicating with you about a registerable activity? Yes. But was is arranged? The answer would be no.

So according to the regulations, that particular communication would not need to be recorded in the monthly report. What the lobbyist would need to be determining is whether they needed to file an initial registration.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Okay. That's helpful.

You may in fact have denied my questioning in another area with your statement that you can't comment on specific cases. In this particular case, it really relates to Rahim Jaffer and Patrick Glemaud in terms of their possible violations of the Lobbying Act. My question is whether you can tell us, when will you report on that? What departments are involved in your investigation?

The reason I ask that question is this quote from the Toronto Star on July 21: “And Lobbying Commissioner Karen Shepherd is following up on requests from the Liberals to examine whether Jaffer breached lobbying laws, a spokesperson for Shepherd has said.”

So it is in the public domain that you are indeed following up on the requests. So when do you plan to report, what departments are involved, and are they cooperating?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

Mr. Chair, it is in the public domain that I am looking into it. I think one of the witnesses actually said we had spoken to them. But in terms of commenting any further, the act does require that I conduct it in private. So I can't comment further.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Can you comment on whether the government departments or individuals within government are cooperating with either this investigation or others? Are you getting full cooperation from departments?

3:45 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

I can answer that in general terms. To date, I've had cooperation from anyone in terms of conducting any of my administrative reviews or investigations.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Not specifically on any given case then, but you note in your report that no charges have been laid yet under this act. But if you determine that there have been violations of the Lobbying Act in a general sense, what steps would you take? Do you issue a statement on the extent of an investigation? Do you refer it to the RCMP? What is the process there?

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

If in conducting an administrative review, which is my fact-finding exercise or investigation, I have reasonable grounds to believe that a breach of the act has occurred, then I must refer the matter to a peace officer. As I indicated in my last annual report, I referred four matters to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Since then, I have referred one other.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

You mentioned that also on page 70. You mention those four on page 17 of your annual report. You are saying now there are four others.

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

No, there's one other.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

I mean one other. Can you give us a sense of what those investigations are about or what happens next, or both?

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

The four of the five that I have sent over dealt with unregistered lobbying, and one dealt with a false and misleading statement.

The next step after I send something over to the RCMP is that I need to suspend looking into the matter. The act requires that I suspend. Once I hear back from the RCMP, then I will determine next steps in terms of whether to continue, for example, with the investigation. The act requires that if I am conducting an investigation, upon completion I must table a report in both houses.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thank you.

You also wrote in your annual report that your office initiated three full investigations into possible contraventions of the Lobbying Act. Is this in the same area relative to those four?

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Okay.

In the final analysis, then, you refer it to the RCMP, they come back to you, and then you determine whether you investigate further and then report to the House. I'm just trying to figure out the process here. Have I got that correct?

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

That's correct.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Okay.

You also noted in your annual report that the number of registered lobbyists fell this year. Do you believe that drop to be temporary? Do you believe it to be a result of maybe more difficult restrictions? What do you attribute that drop to?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Go ahead.

3:50 p.m.

Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying

Karen Shepherd

As I said in my annual report, there's been a drop in the number of lobbyists for a couple of reasons. Some lobbyists have indicated that because of the additional reporting requirements, they have decided to rationalize their approach in terms of the number of people actually communicating with the government. It's one way to try to make sure they are in compliance with the monthly reporting, for example. Others, corporations and organizations, have re-evaluated the “significant part of the duties” tests to determine whether they are hitting the threshold. If they are not, some have chosen not to register.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Thanks, Mr. Chair.