Evidence of meeting #26 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbyists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, actually.
As you know, I wrote to all members of Parliament and included “Ten Things You Should Know About Lobbying”. I've also written to all of the political leaders and offered to meet with caucuses, if interested. Actually, I have a couple of meetings being set up at the Senate level and at the House of Commons level. So I welcome the opportunity to come to speak with you more.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
I think it's something that's going to be definitely necessary.
Dr. Bennett talks about the 14%, which does seem to be pretty high, but some of it sounds as if it's from being overzealous. People do not want to get caught being in contravention, so they're swinging the other way.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Right, and one of the things I found in doing the outreach is that designated public officer holders are sort of going through it as well, and have decided, in some cases, to contact the lobbyist to sort of say that it wasn't oral and arranged, and they are having it removed from the system.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
So the meeting must be oral and arranged. It has to meet those two criteria before its reportable.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Okay.
What kind of advice would you give to each of us for record-keeping? We talked generally about needing to know what the general situation is if it's a health issue. But if you come back to me six months from now and ask if I met with X, Y, and Z and what the conversation was about, I won't have a clue what it was about unless I have better record-keeping than I have today.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It's a question of why I'd be coming to you. On the monthly report, it's strictly to verify the information the lobbyist is required to report on. So in your case, it would be the name, the member of Parliament, the date, and the subject matter, such as health. That's all I'd be coming to verify with you on a monthly communication report.
If I were doing an administrative review or an investigation, I may ask you at that point if there is any written documentation, or I would ask you to provide me with further analysis. But that's a different sort of thing. When I'm talking to departments, it's about the record-keeping they need to do to put key things on a file.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Is there a time limit on any of this, or is it open-ended when it comes to the time you could come back and ask questions?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
There used to be a time limitation of two years for me to look into a matter. That even included referrals to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and their laying charges; that all had to be done within a two-year period.
What Parliament did in passing the Lobbying Act was expand that time period from five years from the time I become aware of the incident to not more than ten years after the actual event occurred. When I'm talking to departments, ten years is the number....
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
It does create some fairly significant record-keeping challenges, I would think, so we need to do that.
There's one thing I wanted to ask you about. In your report you said that the Lobbying Act provides you with the power to grant exemptions to the five-year prohibition if granting such an exemption would not be contrary to the spirit of the Lobbying Act. To date you've received 16 applications and have granted only three, based on exceptional circumstances. What would be an exceptional circumstance, and why would you grant exemptions?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
For the three exemptions that I have granted to date, two of them were for very short periods of time, and in the other case the person had done it on an interim basis. The employer was not going to gain unfair advantage. In the last case, the individual had been an assistant deputy minister who left prior to that five-year grace period that was given to assistant deputy ministers.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Ms. Davidson.
Madam Freeman, vous avez cinq minutes.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Shepherd, I have to tell you, to begin with, that in looking for information, I dealt with one of your staff. I think his name was René Leblanc. He was extremely professional and conscientious. I would like to acknowledge the outstanding work of your deputy.
I will ask my questions. I know that you have to work with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Mary Dawson, on a very frequent basis, because there is a lot of overlap between ethics and lobbying. In September, when Ms. Dawson tabled her report, she recommended that the values and ethics code for the public service, which applies to members of the House of Commons, be tightened by adding barriers between MPs and the lobbyists they might meet at political fundraisers.
Do you agree with Ms. Dawson? And what should be done, in your opinion?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
First, I would like to mention that I am often called upon to work with Ms. Dawson. However, we have two separate mandates. So we do not work together. We may work on the same cases, she from the minister's standpoint, and I from the lobbyist's.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
After tabling her report, she suggested that the rules governing values and ethics in the House of Commons should be strengthened by adding barriers between MPs and the lobbyists they might meet at political fundraisers. That is what Ms. Dawson said when she tabled her report. So that was her opinion.
I would like to know if you share that opinion.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Lobbyists have to comply with the act, but they also have to follow the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct. Rule 8 deals with conflicts of interest.
Allow me to express myself in English.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Of course. I know it is quite an intense meeting.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Rule 8 indicates that a lobbyist shall not place a public office holder in a conflict of interest by taking on any activities that would cause or suggest improper influence.
There was a court case, which was Democracy Watch v. Barry Campbell. And in the court case it said the previous guidance that had been given on the rule was unreasonable. They declared that basically it wasn't just a real conflict of interest but a potential conflict of interest.
So I have issued guidance that a lobbyist needs to be mindful of in terms of advancing the private interest of the public office holder and causing a tension with the public office holder's duty to serve the public good and the private interest. I have indicated that something like organizing a fundraising event for a public office holder is advancing, arguably, the interest of a public office holder. If the individual was then to be lobbying, there would be the potential for a conflict there. So I would see a fundraising event as being very much something a lobbyist would have to be mindful of in terms of participation.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Unless I am mistaken, you share Ms. Dawson's opinion that the ethical rules for members of the House of Commons should be strengthened by putting actual barriers between MPs and lobbyists at fundraising events?
October 21st, 2010 / 5:10 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
She is interested in the minister's side of things. But I can honestly say that in principle, yes, because if the public office holder asks a lobbyist to organize something, I will be looking at it from the other angle, and I will tell the lobbyist that he did participate.
Bloc
Carole Freeman Bloc Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Okay, thank you. So you share her opinion in a way.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Merci, Madame Freeman.
We're going to go to Mr. Calandra for five minutes and then we will deal with Mr. Easter's motion before adjournment.
Mr. Calandra.
Conservative
Paul Calandra Conservative Oak Ridges—Markham, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. You've answered a lot of the questions I've had up to this point.
I'm wondering about the industry itself. How has the industry itself responded to this? Are they also participating in educating themselves with respect to the new rules? Are they being cooperative? I know it's a bit of a change for them. If I'm not mistaken, you were a branch of Industry Canada before, so how has the industry itself reacted to this?