Evidence of meeting #38 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was governments.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Paul Macmillan  Partner and National Industry Leader, Deloitte
Michael Geist  Canada Research Chair, Internet and E-commerce Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Eric Sauve  Vice-President, Newsgator Technologies

4:35 p.m.

Canada Research Chair, Internet and E-commerce Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

Right. We should be clear about what that is. I think it was one of the first times someone tried to do it. I launched an access to information request for data on all requests that government had received on crown copyright within one government year. By my calculation, about 95% had been approved.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Monsieur Gaudet is next. You have five minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sauve, what does open government mean to you?

4:35 p.m.

Vice-President, Newsgator Technologies

Eric Sauve

You are asking what open government means?

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

I am talking about a government, not the government. It could be municipal, provincial or federal. What does an open government mean?

4:35 p.m.

Vice-President, Newsgator Technologies

Eric Sauve

I am not sure whether I have a good answer to that. It is really hard to define. For instance, if you compare our government with the Congolese government, ours is excellent in terms of transparency.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

No.

I was the mayor of a town for 14 years. The salary of municipal employees was the only information that was not disclosed. The salaries were combined to give a total amount. But everything else was audited every four years, including my expenses as mayor and those of the reeve. I would get a call from a lawyer asking for the mayoral expenses, the RCM's expenses and the municipality's. And we would send that information.

That is what I want to know. A government, whether it be in the Congo or elsewhere, can be open or not. What does an open government mean to you?

4:40 p.m.

Vice-President, Newsgator Technologies

Eric Sauve

I would say what I already said. It would be good if the government's data collection efforts could be more profitable for society.

As for the issue of transparency, I am not nearly as knowledgeable as the other witnesses.

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

Mr. Macmillan, what does an open government mean to you?

Get ready, Mr. Geist.

4:40 p.m.

Partner and National Industry Leader, Deloitte

Paul Macmillan

I have a few different ways to answer that question.

The standard for transparency has increased substantially in the past 24 months or so. The idea of a transparent and accountable government certainly has been around for a long time. What we're seeing with respect to the Internet age is that citizens have a much higher expectation for transparency. I'll use the example of scorecards that are produced by government.

In the health care sector, for example, there are wait times. Governments historically would produce scorecards or performance indicators, and that would be the idea of a transparent approach to results. Today citizens want to understand what data went into the scorecard. They don't want to see the bar graph; they want to see the raw data. They want to make their own decisions as to whether or not what's reported by government is supported by the facts and the data. What you're seeing increasingly is that citizens are asking for the underlying fact base that went into the report.

Now, not all citizens are able to analyze and manipulate that information, so in a way you're in a bit of a catch-22, because other citizens actually want the report because they don't have the capacity to go off and analyze data and create their own. This is what we're seeing, for example, at the provincial level in the education area. The education area is a good example. Community groups are starting to get together to look at the data available across government programs and put together their own report cards on school performance. They want, for instance, to combine data on teachers making salaries of $100,000 or more with what the average student score is in the classroom.

Ministries of education are finding they'll have reports on school bus utilization. A parent group will say, “I'm standing on the street corner and I'm seeing the bus go by. That bus looks full to me. I don't know why you think it's not full and why we have to collapse the route. Could you please give us the data that you're using to determine that the buses are full?” It's increasingly difficult for governments to say that they're not going to give them those data. Once you start down that path, it becomes a matter of getting the next piece of data, and the next piece of data, and now they can combine data from five or six different sources and create their own scorecard.

That's what citizens want when they talk about open government: open data. That's what citizens are after.

What you find is this: if the U.S. releases 304,000 or 305,000 data sets, or if B.C. releases 500 data sets for the purpose of their environmental contest, it gets very difficult for governments to justify why they're not releasing 501 or, if they have 500 data sets, why they released just 499. If they had 300,000, why did they only release 250?

It's a philosophy. If it fits a certain kind of criterion, we're going to make it available. It's easier to default to why it's not being made available than to justify every single data set that's made available. You can split hairs on open government, open data, unlocked government, etc., but it's really a question of trying to get to what citizens in today's Internet world expect of their governments with respect to transparency.

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

Mr. Geist, what does an open government mean to you?

4:40 p.m.

Canada Research Chair, Internet and E-commerce Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

I have to admit that I like a lot of what Mr. Macmillan just had to say. I think it starts from a presumption that it's open, full stop. Once you start from the presumption that access to our democratic institutions is going to be open, everything follows from there.

We've seen that happen in other countries that have adopted that position, particularly the United States. It's startling to see a country go from virtually zero data set availability to hundreds of thousands in the span of 18 months or less. It's literally been just a matter of months--less than two years--based on the presumption, the starting point, that it's open, and that if it's not going to be open, you have to justify why. As I think was rightly noted, once you start with the presumption that it's going to be available unless there's some powerful reason that it shouldn't be, you open up your government and you open up all sorts of opportunities, whether we're talking about democratic accountability or the economic potential we just heard about.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Monsieur Gaudet.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Gaudet Bloc Montcalm, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Just before we go to Mr. Albrecht, I'd like all three witnesses to deal with an issue that I consider to be a challenge unique to Canada: the Official Languages Act. You've quite rightly described the whole concept, and I certainly sense your enthusiasm. I agree with most of what you're saying, but the Government of Canada has taken the position that anything they post or publish has to be in both official languages in accordance with our legislation.

You both elaborate on 305,000 data sets published by the United States, which is very impressive, and you've also related the experiences in New Zealand, Australia, and Great Britain, but none of those countries has the unique circumstances that Canada has, in that the data set, if it's published by the Government of Canada, would have to be in both official languages. I believe that would be the interpretation. In some cases, I suggest those costs would be prohibitively expensive. I'm not suggesting we should do away with the concept, but I think this is going to be a unique and real challenge facing Canada that was not faced by other countries that you are comparing Canada to. I'd like all three of you to give your thoughts and opinions on how you see the country facing that particular challenge.

4:45 p.m.

Partner and National Industry Leader, Deloitte

Paul Macmillan

Perhaps I could start. It's a journey in terms of how data would be made available. There are some reasonably simple examples, such as public accounts data. That information is structured and wouldn't be difficult to release in both official languages, but at the moment, it's not provided in a way that citizens could manipulate, understand, analyze, and compare to other things. There are categories of data, and as you get into numerical information, numbers of transactions, numbers of cases, etc., you're into less of a translation issue.

If you're talking about volumes of records that are more text-based than other things that need to be translated, I wouldn't profess to be an expert on how that would happen or how that would evolve, but I think significant amounts of transactional information could be easily formatted in both official languages and could be released.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Go ahead, Professor Geist.

4:45 p.m.

Canada Research Chair, Internet and E-commerce Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

Former industry minister John Manley appeared before the Bill C-32 committee yesterday, and I believe that in talking about the bill, he said, “The perfect is the enemy of the good”.

I think that applies here. The notion that we have to jump from zero to 300,000 on day one and find a way to ensure that every single piece is translated is going to ensure it never happens. There is an awful lot of documentation and a lot of data already translated, so when I talk about all this crown copyright material as an example, this stuff is made available and is already translated.

As was rightly noted, there are many sorts of data sets, especially when we're largely dealing with just numbers. The ability to translate some of that stuff in relatively short order--stuff produced out of StatsCan, produced out of some other government departments--I would have thought would be fairly straightforward. Will other data sets that are more text-based present a challenge? Absolutely.

If it were me, at that point I would suggest that we go for the low-hanging fruit and make available just about everything we can, recognizing that this is going to be an issue for a lot of other stuff. When we get to that point, or even before, we start having the discussion about whether it is a requirement that everything be translated or whether we can adopt an approach of translating these things on demand. In this way, if a Canadian citizen or a certain number of Canadian citizens make a formal request that the document be available in English or French or in whatever language it isn't available, there is an undertaking to ensure that it is made available in that language, but we don't start from the position that everything has to be made accessible before it can even be released.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'm not so sure that's the way it works. I don't think you can.... It's not an if or an either/or, and then they can request that it be translated. I think if the government is going to publish it, it has to be translated.

4:50 p.m.

Canada Research Chair, Internet and E-commerce Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Dr. Michael Geist

I recognize what the law says now. I also recognize we're a country of 33 million people. If a single person comes forward asking for this document to be made available in English if it was originally in French, I would suggest that the notion that we're going to stop making it available to large numbers--millions of people--in whatever the language happens to be doesn't help to further the ultimate goals of the Official Languages Act.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Go ahead, Mr. Sauve.

4:50 p.m.

Vice-President, Newsgator Technologies

Eric Sauve

My view on this is quite brief. If you commit to having more data transparency, it's just the cost of doing business. I don't know if it really makes a difference. If you want to do it, that's how much it costs. It's more expensive than it is for people who only have one language, but if you see the value, then that's what it costs. We're not going to have to call the troops back from Afghanistan if we decide that we're going to do it. We're not going to run out of money, right? At least, I don't think so. Are we?

My view on that would be a little bit pragmatic. If you can confirm to me that we're not going to run out of money, then my answer to you is that it's simply the cost of doing business.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Well, we can always print more money.

4:50 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

We'll go to Mr. Albrecht.