Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 27th, 2011

[Ian Morrison]

I can't get into something of which I have no knowledge, like whether some journalist's travel expenses are something that should or should not be on the public record. You'd have to check it. I liked the approach of the Information Commissioner in suggesting to you that.... Help me with the phrase. That test, does it cause harm?

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Understood.

[Ian Morrison]

Yes. I think that general approach is correct. At a policy level, I rather liked and sympathized with the position of the commissioner. At an anecdotal level, I think there's no doubt that Quebecor is not a disinterested party here, and as I said, we often dismiss something they say.

However, you personally have been quite attentive and have demonstrated to some of our volunteers in your riding that you care about public broadcasting. I think it was Karen Kitchen who went to see you sometime during the recent election campaign, so we know at the grassroots level that you are a person of integrity who is trying to balance his role as a public servant. That's why I disassociated myself from the comment that there's anything inappropriate in this public hearing.

But I will save time for my colleagues.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Are there any comments from other guests?

[Marc-Philippe Laurin]

I don't know what I can add to that. That pretty well covers it, except to say that—how shall I put this?—when you're in the business of meeting people to cover a story and you're meeting with folks related to that story, you may not want to disclose that information. It's fine for somebody to say, hey, so-and-so went out and I saw them, or I'd like to get their receipts for the last month. I don't see the purpose of Quebecor asking for that, quite frankly, except to find out maybe where the best noodle soup is in Montreal. I don't know.

But if I or one of my colleagues are meeting as journalists, members, with people and working on a story, we may not want that to be known. It may be a private conversation; it may be a confidential informant.

I agree that the commissioner has a pretty clear picture in that area of what may and may not constitute journalistic under—

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

What's my time?

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

You have roughly just under two minutes.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Let me then--

[Marc-Philippe Laurin]

If I may just wrap up, I think the issue comes down to how we streamline the process so that Canadians have the information about the public broadcaster that should be accessible to them. How do we identify that information and then make it more clear-cut? The CBC has been involved in and open to access to information for, what, two and a half years now?

[Karen Wirsig]

It has been four.

[Marc-Philippe Laurin]

It's been four years, sorry. They created a whole department to answer requests because of the influx. Information on executive expenses is posted on the CBC website. The breakdown of how the CBC spends its $1 billion is broken down on the CBC websites—14 services, two official languages—

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Sorry to cut you off, but I'm running out of time, and I don't want to lose here.

I'm from a business background, so I understand that when you put statements together, you consolidate them, you try to break them down, and you put what information you can out there. I'm not sure that the information disclosed is as complete as you might think.

I'll go back to the access to information issue. Mr. Morrison, you suggested that there were a number of requests from your office that went into CBC and came back redacted and blank, etc., and were unfulfilled, as far as your request. Would it be possible for you to supply this committee with those requests?

[Ian Morrison]

I'll supply you with the requests, and I'll supply you with the answers, if you want to just see them.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

I think we need--

[Ian Morrison]

I can give you an executive summary. It was not 1% satisfactory.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

I think it would be good for us to see them. We had another witness--

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Mr. Carmichael, your time is up.

[John Carmichael, Conservative, Don Valley West, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

If you are going to send additional information, please send it to the clerk. Thank you very much.

Mr. Dusseault for five minutes.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I also want to thank the witnesses for being with us today.

My first question is for Mr. Morrison.

You talked about other countries and their public broadcasters. You also mentioned something that startled me a little bit: the 12 members of the CBC's Board of Directors were appointed by the current government.

Could you provide us with more details on what is done in other countries? Are boards of directors also appointed by the government? Are they accountable to someone or to the government?

[Ian Morrison]

Thank you.

Forgive me if I speak in my preferred official language.

First, you're talking about the board of directors of the respective organizations. Of course, every country is different, but one thing that most of them have in common is that the board of directors selects the CEO on a competitive merit basis, and can terminate him.

Some of you may remember that in British public affairs, the governors of the BBC did fire their director general five or six years ago. His name was Greg Dyke, and he was terminated. I know that's the case in Denmark.

Rather than my occupying the time of the committee about it anecdotally, it is something you could get the Library of Parliament—and I would cooperate with them—to pull a little report together for you. They would be looking at the northern European countries: the Danes, the Swedes, the Finns, the Norwegians, the French, the Dutch, and the Germans. They'd look at Australia, and they would look at Japan, and that would be a good sample.

I think some work was done on this, by the way, by the committee that Mr. Angus referred to when he and Mr. Del Mastro were studying.... Certainly, the Lincoln report had some information on it, but it's all 10 years old at this point.

I just give you my overview. We are the outrider. We are the exception among democratic countries.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

My second question is for Mr. Laurin or Ms. Wirsig.

You think that Quebecor's access to information requests were often related to matters that could provide it with an advantage over its main competitor. For his part, Mr. Péladeau told us that his company submitted those ATI requests with the public interest in mind. I would like to know what you think about that.

Do you think that it was done in the public interest, so that people would be better informed, or that it was done to give Quebecor an advantage over its main competitor?

[Karen Wirsig]

In our brief, we quoted Brian Lilley, who, in an article published on November 20, 2010, lists four requests out of the thousands his news agency has submitted to the government and to the CBC.

Allow me to check this in our brief.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

It's on pages 3 and 4.

[Karen Wirsig]

I will read the quote in English:

“has filed thousands of ATI requests, trying to find out how and why CBC spends taxpayer money on board meetings in Iqaluit....”

In that case, it may be normal: they want to know how much those people spend on a meeting in Iqaluit.

“...executive expenses, anchor salaries and bidding for commercial or sports properties.”

We feel that the last two elements, the salaries of TV anchors and bidding for sports properties, are obviously completely competitive, in that area. I was also told—and this is anecdotal—that reporters' notebooks or tapes with their interviews were also being requested. That obviously has to do with journalistic activities. I believe that the number of requests involving journalistic activities is much higher than you may think.