Evidence of meeting #59 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bluekai.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alan Chapell  Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.
Jennifer Stoddart  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Barbara Bucknell  Strategic Policy Analyst, Legal Services, Policy and Research Branch, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Chantal Bernier  Assistant Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

We had Google here, and they were saying that with their new Chrome platform—which I have yet to use, because it won't work on my Mac, but that's a side story—they basically allow complete stealth operation. How does that affect BlueKai, if the browsers start to opt in to give users the ability to go under the surface without being tracked? Is that going to affect your business model at all?

3:40 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.

Alan Chapell

Most of the major browsers have offered some form of stealth for a couple of years. I think some of them call it “incognito”. I think each browser has its own nomenclature for it. Those have been in existence for a number of years. To the extent that it provides users with some comfort that those Internet browsing sessions will be subject to the incognito rules, I think that's a good thing. We haven't seen stealth or incognito having a significant impact upon the BlueKai business to date.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault

Thank you. Unfortunately, Mr. Angus, your time is up.

I will now yield the floor to Mr. Calkins for seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Thank you, Chair.

I'm listening with great interest about your platform. You answered a couple of questions that I had as you went on with your conversation.

I want to talk a little bit about cookies. Just so I'm clear, your company is a data aggregator. Is that right?

3:40 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.

Alan Chapell

I think that's a fair description.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Then you use that aggregate information and provide third party advertising directed back to a particular computer based on the cookies that are in the cache or in the cookie file that is commonly used by whichever Internet browser might be used on that computer at that particular point in time.

3:45 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.

Alan Chapell

I think that's correct, sir, with the caveat that BlueKai isn't using this data. We provide a platform that allows our advertising clients to utilize that data.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Who has that data?

3:45 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.

Alan Chapell

The data is stored by BlueKai.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

The data is stored by BlueKai, but there's data also on the local machine. That's there in both cases.

3:45 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.

Alan Chapell

Yes, sir.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

I can write an app. I used to do this for a living, so I can write an app that will create a cookie and store it on a computer, and every time somebody puts information in a form—first name, last name, address, and so on—that information is stored on a cookie. The reason it has to be stored on a cookie is that a web page is static, not dynamic, even when you're using dynamic HTML, or whatever it happens to be.... Is this language that you and I both understand?

3:45 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.

Alan Chapell

Yes, sir.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

For the sake of edification, the reason cookies are used is that they're a necessary tool. It's not a client-server application. It's a static page, making a transaction with whatever other servers are out there across the Internet at that time. The cookie is there simply as a vehicle to store the information. It's a tool, sometimes temporary and sometimes permanent, for maintaining profiles, user information, or whatever it happens to be.

This is why, when we log back on to a number of different websites, the information that we were there last time is already automatically preloaded into that web page. This way, we don't have to constantly keep doing it. We get prompted as users from time to time if we want Internet Explorer to save the information for future use. That information's stored in a cookie. I understand that.

What I need to know from your perspective is this: you have this opt-out protection tool, which relies on a cookie to keep track of the bit or the signal or whatever it is that says they've opted out, yet as my colleague Mr. Angus brought to our attention, if he chooses to turn the cookies off and delete the cache or the history, and all of the cookies are wiped out, you have no knowledge of that opt-out on the machine.

Is that correct?

3:45 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.

Alan Chapell

When the opt-out protector tool is not in the user's browser, then the answer to that question is yes. We saw that as an issue in the marketplace, and that's one of the reasons that we created the BlueKai opt-out protector. It's a browser plug-in tool.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

It's a plug-in.

3:45 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.

Alan Chapell

Even when users delete their cookies, the opt-out cookie will not delete.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Is it a Java plug-in, or what kind of a plug-in is it?

3:45 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.

Alan Chapell

I believe it's a Java browser plug-in.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

It's a Java plug-in. Okay.

You said you made the source code public.

3:45 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.

Alan Chapell

We did. We took a source code—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

So anybody...

3:45 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.

Alan Chapell

—provided by Google....

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

—anybody could reverse-engineer this. Anybody could take a look at it, and anybody who has the experience could look at the code and understand the nature of what's happening there. It's a transparency mechanism for BlueKai, right?

3:45 p.m.

Outside Counsel, Privacy Officer, BlueKai Inc.