Evidence of meeting #84 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
NDP
The Chair NDP Pierre-Luc Dusseault
Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.
I now hand the floor over to Mr. Warkentin for seven minutes.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I think many of my constituents would disagree with Mr. Boulerice. Many of my constituents do have some questions about CBC and do want those things answered. But we have to get a bill through this committee, one that will work and that will respect, obviously, the balance that's necessary in terms of protecting journalistic rights, the rights of a journalist to keep their sources confidential, and of course, the right of the public to know where their resources are being allocated. We're working on just that—to get the balance right.
You said in your testimony, Commissioner, that currently, if somebody were to ATIP your office, you would release the information with regard to an employee's classification, their range of salary, their work description, and the reimbursed expenses that they have received.
Do you know if that's the same requirement that CBC would be under right now?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I can't speak to the practice at CBC, but that's our reading of our obligations in terms of access to information legislation.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
I think that's information that obviously the public may, from time to time, want to find out. I think that maybe is an issue, and that's why it's an important clarification within the legislation that my colleague is undertaking, to ensure that CBC is fully aware of the roles and responsibilities they must undertake when trying to collect this information.
We did hear concern with regard to.... CBC wrote a letter, actually, to our committee outlining some concerns with regard to journalistic information that might be disclosed to a secondary agency like CRTC, so from the corporation to CRTC. Their interpretation of the amendment that has been presented and proposed is that CBC could withhold information if it involved a journalistic source. But if they released that information to CRTC, in an effort to comply with their obligations to CRTC, the CRTC may, as a secondary agency, actually have to release that information.
Have you looked into that at all, or undertaken a review of that concern?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Not really, honourable member. I believe this is mostly an access to information issue. That's unless you're talking about some personal information, or...?
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Well, let's consider the possibility that it would be personal information that had been released to a secondary institution. Should we be concerned that a secondary institution would release information that a primary institution shouldn't release?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
As I recall, there's an obligation on the secondary institution to consult. This is not their personal information, or they got it from another institution, so I believe they cannot simply.... You can only release personal information in very strict situations, and usually to the person to whom it belongs, whose personal information it is. So that does not seem to me a very likely scenario, but I don't know if our general counsel has...?
Senior General Counsel and Director General, Legal Services, Policy and Research, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
I think the same question was also posed, if I recall, to earlier witnesses, and there is the concept of custody and control—which government institution has custody and control of the information? In this case, it would be the CBC. If an access requester for personal information or other information were to seek access to that information, the appropriate department to address that request to would be the CBC.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Is a journalist's source considered personal information?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
If it's a human source, a person, yes. That would be personal information of that person, yes.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Well, that does give me great comfort. I think we've heard a lot of concern from a number of different journalist organizations that were concerned about these matters. I appreciate your interpretation.
The CRTC falls under your purview as well, in the same way that any other agency does. Is that correct?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Yes, that is.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Okay. So the CRTC would operate the same and be required to maintain information in the same way as the CBC or any other government institution.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Exactly. They're all covered by the Privacy Act, the CBC more recently, I believe, since 2006.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Thank you.
In terms of the information with regard to your office, getting back to the issue of the disclosure of salaries, job descriptions, and reimbursed expenses, does that apply to all civil servants regardless of what they're paid?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Yes, that's my understanding. It's one of the exceptions to personal information in the Privacy Act.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Okay. So there is no limitation, then, to wage...to receive that information.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Conservative
Liberal
Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL
Thank you, Commissioner, for appearing before us.
To reverse the circumstance, would there be a liability to the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation if they were to release personal information that subsequently could be deemed by the target of the release to be outside the scope of their right for privacy? Is there a liability issue?
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Well, the person could make a complaint and we could investigate. Supposing it had been incorrectly released by CBC, we would deem the complaint well founded, but at that point there is no further sanction.
That takes me into the question of Privacy Act review, which this committee studied some years ago at great length. I think it's a problem that there are no sanctions in the law now for an institution that misuses Canadians' personal information.
Liberal
Gerry Byrne Liberal Humber—St. Barbe—Baie Verte, NL
That's an interesting point. There was another circumstance, which may be related but in the sense of the responsibility and the duty to protect, and that was the loss of some personal information in another agency, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada. There is no specific legislative liability within the Privacy Act for those who fail in that duty to protect, to keep the statute whole.
Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
The only liability is that they can be publicly named. If a complaint can be made, well founded, we can go to Federal Court, in fairly limited circumstances, to get an order, but there are no damages, for example. There are no specific sanctions on individuals who misuse personal information.
