Evidence of meeting #13 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agents.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Mr. Ferguson, as the Auditor General you have a very specific and important role in ensuring accountability to Canadians. You take an oath as part of this work.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Right now you're investigating the Senate; I understand there's a Senate audit going on. According to a February 13 article, some senators did not seem to want to comply, but I don't want to get into the details of that audit. Whether it was the sponsorship scandal with your predecessors, whether it's the misspending on the F-35, you sometimes have a very politically hot role to play because you expose the powerful.
Under clauses 9 and 10 of this bill, it would be extraordinary because now the people who are being investigated would be able to demand investigations of you and your staff. Is that your reading of clauses 9 and 10 of this bill?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Clause 9 and clause 10 give the right for somebody to bring to my attention any accusation of these types of activities. Again the term “partisan manner” is not defined, so that's something that as an agent we would have to determine. My colleagues have also made the comments that there's no definition of what would be reasonable grounds and that sort of thing.
There are ways already for people to come forward and bring forward any concerns they might have if they feel any of our people are not acting objectively in any way. As my colleague said, we very much have processes in place as well to make sure that's how we operate.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
This bill has no threshold for what would launch an attack, no investigation, no definition of what the partisan activities would be.
Mr. Ferguson, in light of the roles of the auditors general in the provinces and other jurisdictions, are you aware of any other jurisdiction where those who may be under investigation would be able to publicly denounce the work of an auditor general who's investigating them?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
People can always raise questions about any aspect of the work we do. Again, our processes and the way we have done the work for more than 100 years has stood the test of time.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Yes. So this bill adds the ability of a Conservative member or senator to demand an investigation with no threshold.
Mr. Mayrand, to put it on the record, this past month your staff insisted that one of my volunteers from the 2008 election sign a compliance agreement on having left a bank account empty but open. Were you acting in a partisan manner when you decided to look at my campaigns in 2008 and 2011?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Neither the employees nor myself have done that.
I should point out again. We have strict procedures in place. We have a piece of legislation that prescribes in much detail and that's our guidance in administering the legislation.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
The rules are the rules. Politicians get their backs up pretty easily. They don't like getting questioned, but the rules are the rules.
You're there to enforce the rules whether it's me, whether it's Dean Del Mastro. You do not wear a team jersey.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
The spectre of a team jersey was raised by my colleague, Mr. Zimmer. He's repeating what sounded very much to me like a smear for Mr. Poilievre, that they were having to rewrite the Elections Act to ensure that Elections Canada isn't wearing a team jersey when it launches investigations.
Are you aware of any allegations that Elections Canada has been wearing a “team jersey”, and that we need to not only rewrite the electoral laws, but now we also need to allow people such as Mr. Zimmer to demand investigations of you?
Conservative
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
Yes, it's just to challenge Mr. Angus to state the facts when he's quoting something that I've said. Stick to the facts, Mr. Angus.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Mr. Mayrand, the allegation that's being laid out is that your office is wearing a team jersey; we have to rewrite the entire Elections Act; we're having to rewrite it so that colleagues, whether it's Mr. Zimmer or Ms. Tilly O’Neill Gordon, can demand investigations.
Does Elections Canada wear a team jersey when it enforces the electoral rules of this country?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
In my opinion, no.
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, anyone in this country may file a complaint with the office regarding the activities and the way the activities are carried out. If they feel these are tainted by political activities, they can always file a complaint. Such a complaint will be duly examined and investigated, and the plaintiff will be informed of the outcome.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Mr. Dean Del Mastro, who is now under investigation by Elections Canada, stood up in the House and accused your office of a breach of privilege against him for investigating whether or not he broke the laws of Canada. He said that he felt violated and betrayed by an agency in which he and every member of that place put their trust, and that this was conducted with malice and contempt for Mr. Del Mastro and his family.
When you investigated whether Mr. Del Mastro was breaking the laws of Canada, was there any team jersey, or were you simply following the law?
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Again, I won't comment on any matter that's before the courts. As you know, there are proceedings now pending before the courts.
NDP
The Chair NDP Pat Martin
That concludes your time, Mr. Angus.
Next, for the Conservatives is Mr. Paul Calandra.