Evidence of meeting #105 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbying.
A video is available from Parliament.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, absolutely.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Also in the report, your predecessor mentioned that the office had begun to address essential maintenance issues that had been deferred as a result of previous budget reductions. Has that been resolved? What is your plan going forward?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Has it been resolved? No.
Back in 2012, because of the reduction exercise, 5% was given back, and now we're continuing to survive with less money to play around with. I don't mean playing; I mean, to transfer into the registry.
The registry is our main tool. What we've been doing since 2014 is maintain it. We continue to develop some parts, but we never have enough money to look at the whole thing and develop it.
It's 10 years old. The team is extremely concerned that some components of it may no longer be supported, and then we would have to continue to almost put band-aids on, instead of looking at it as a whole and relooking.
In the fall, the predecessor asked Treasury Board for additional money for the registry. It was not granted in the budget, but I will continue to look at ways to invest in the registry to make sure that it continues to be modern.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
Here is one final thought. This is something we've spoken about with every commissioner in terms of outreach and education. I think it's extremely important.
Liberal
Raj Saini Liberal Kitchener Centre, ON
I understand that you have an MOU with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner; that is good. Now that you're in this new role and education is so important, do you have any ideas about how you are going to try to reach out not only to lobbyists to explain about filling out reports accurately and what is required of them, but also to the public to explain what the office actually does?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
As I said earlier, I need to start with lobbyists. I also need to reach out to public officer holders and designated public office holders so that they understand their role when a lobbyist comes in.
We're planning to do webinars, and I'm really hoping that with Commissioner Dion we can reach out to Canadians.
I've been there four months, and so we're seeing long term, but I think I need to reach out even possibly to universities and companies. We just need to get out there, so that people know what we really do and the importance of doing it.
Very often in the media lobbyists have a bad rap, or public office holders are embarrassed to admit that they're meeting with lobbyists. That should not be happening. There's a message out there that we need to explain: that it is positive that you get the information you need to make the decision in the public interest. I will try to assist in that as much as I can.
Liberal
Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON
Thank you, Nancy.
A little while back, the gentleman I defeated, Bryan Hayes, an MP for the Conservative Party, came to see me. He had lost the election, he didn't get his job back in the Sault at his place of employment, his wife was in a car accident, and he has no pension. He is thus in a situation in which he has to make a decision.
He wanted to move to Ottawa to work for the Canadian Cancer Society or Big Brothers or something like that, doing stuff that he enjoys, but he wrote and got a negative letter back because he was a backbencher and had to sit out for five years.
I've been doing some research and have been talking to many MPs from both sides of the aisle, and they find this interpretation rather ridiculous: Bryan is able to pick up the phone, as has been talked about, and reach the Prime Minister.
It seems too restrictive. I have a job when I go back; I have a five-year window in which I can make my decision to run again, etc.
I want to bring that to your attention, because I think that rule or law first of all doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but then the interpretation of it as well.
As a final point, just recently—in December—I was handing out Canada 150 pins to various people; we had a small allotment. I went back and met with the former MPs—NDPs and Conservatives—and they all tell the same story. We didn't talk about lobbying or anything like that; they talked about the difficulty of transition for an MP back to the world and jobs.
I'd appreciate having your comments on that.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
My first comment will be that the rule does not make a lot of sense. I think that former public officer holders need to be careful, when they go back to working outside government, that they don't take advantage of information or contacts they've obtained to then further their own private interests or that of the company. There is a purpose for that rule in the ethics world.
The law as written right now says that it is five years. We get requests for exemptions, but the law right now is written as if someone were a student, very short-term, only doing administrative duties. It's extremely limited as to how I can apply this exemption.
I don't set the rule. The rule is five years.
Whether or not it's the will of Parliament to reduce the five years or give permission to the commissioner to reduce the five years—because right now, the way the law is written I would not be permitted to reduce the five years—is something the committee can look into, absolutely.
Liberal
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Bélanger and Mr. Bertrand, thank you both for being here this morning.
The infamous 20% rule is something that's always concerned me. If someone who isn't a registered lobbyist meets with a public office-holder or an MP to discuss a certain issue, how can we know whether they are really adhering to the 20% rule? That person could tell us that they are responsible for only a small file and that they spend no more than one day a month working on it. All we can do is take their word for it. We are powerless.
Do you have any advice for us?
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, I do have some advice.
The only thing I can recommend is to be diligent about writing down the names of the people you meet with and the issues you discuss. You can also advise them to register if they do satisfy the 20% rule. I don't think, though, that it's up to you to make sure they satisfy the rule. You already have enough on your plate.
However, if you do have doubts, I suggest that you contact our office. We keep a close eye on what goes on in the news. We try to be proactive. If anything shows up on our radar, we contact lobbyists. We endeavour to check the information and make clear what their obligations are. If you have any doubts, let us know. We can't know the name of every single company or organization you meet with.
The only piece of advice I can give you is to write everything down, because I could ask you to confirm the information I was given. If any information needed to be corrected, you would have to tell me that. I could also ask you to confirm whether you had indeed met with certain people.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Oftentimes, they are people representing charities or non-profit organizations. Normally, it's fine, but shouldn't registration happen automatically in the case of individuals who represent big companies or multinationals such as Facebook, Google, and Netflix?
We often hear stories about a multinational's CEO or a country leader meeting with members of Parliament without being registered. That creates a predicament.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Registration could be automatic, but that's not the case now. The act, in its current form, isn't built that way, so legislative amendments would be necessary to require all those companies to register.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Someone might argue that it's impossible for them to spend more than 5% or 10% of their time on lobbying, but if 10 people from the same company each spend 10% of their time on lobbying activities, it is equivalent to a full-time lobbyist.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Yes, absolutely. In that case, they would be required to register. If, when added together, the percentage of time spent by each individual on lobbying exceeds 20%, they do have an obligation to register.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It is cumulative and takes into account all of the employees.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
If we report all of those people, you will look into it.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I assure you that we will examine it. That is my commitment.
Conservative
Jacques Gourde Conservative Lévis—Lotbinière, QC
Very well.
Are there other provisions in the act we should pay special attention to, as part of the new study we will be undertaking?
That could make both your job and ours easier. Keeping track of everyone we met with and summarizing what we talked about isn't easy. Sometimes, the meeting lasts just a half-hour.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
We don't require a summary of the discussion.
What we need from you is straightforward. All you need to do is verify some information, including the date, the names of the individuals present, and the topic of conversation. That means a list of the issues discussed, not a summary of what was said. We ask that you verify a list.
As for what should be amended in the act, I believe I answered your questions. We talked about transparency, the 20% rule—which needs to be changed—pre-arranged communications, and the range of sanctions. Some things may have slipped my mind, but we'll go over all of it together. The ones I just mentioned are the main priorities.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
My pleasure.
