Information & Ethics Committee on June 12th, 2018

[Jeff Silvester]

That was our understanding, yes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But coordination would be illegal?

[Jeff Silvester]

That was our understanding, yes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

So when Mr. Massingham is offering to get the money to them, and he said it was okay, that the representative of Vote Leave was going to get the money, Mr. Massingham was taking on the role of helping to coordinate the transfer of funds from Vote Leave to BeLeave, correct?

[Jeff Silvester]

No. As I said earlier, that specific question was about transferring some of the money that had been given to us, back to BeLeave because they needed money for expenses other than advertising. So Mr. Massingham's comment was in relation to that. It didn't end up happening because, I guess, Darren found another way to—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, he was getting the money directly from Vote Leave. But 300K in a single day is an enormous amount of money that would certainly help tip an election, which is why I think the investigation as to whether or not you were, as Mr. Wylie says, a money laundering vehicle for Vote Leave is the question we keep coming back to.

Given the enormous amount of money that was transferred on a single day to buy ads, you didn't front Vote Leave through the coordination because Mr. Massingham was willing to coordinate it, but Victoria Woodcock did it. Do you disagree with Mr. Wylie's statement that you were involved in a money laundering operation?

[Jeff Silvester]

First of all, money laundering is a very serious criminal charge.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I know. That's why when he said this under oath, I jumped out of my chair.

[Jeff Silvester]

But I note at the same time that he only says it in committee, because it's not true. Were he to say it outside, then we might have some legal recourse. We don't because he's saying it at committee.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But you're protected by privilege as well. So you could tell us and you'd be protected, and I think that you haven't made use of that.

I want to go back to the information commission letter that Darren Grimes wrote, where he explained that for 600K, you got some emails and that, and he said he did not undertake any working together with Vote Leave Limited, that he had no involvement with Vote Leave Limited's work with AggregateIQ Data Service Limited or any other companies. He says this was a completely separate operation, but then he says in the Slack messages to Mr. Massingham not to worry about getting 300K on a single day, that he would get it from Victoria from Vote Leave. Mr. Grimes is on record as saying he wasn't coordinating the finances. Mr. Massingham seems to be stepping up to offer to help coordinate the finances.

[Jeff Silvester]

No. Again,—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

How are we to interpret this as anything other than that you play a much bigger role than simply doing the data clicks?

[Jeff Silvester]

The £300,000 was money that we'd spent that had already been paid to us by BeLeave. We didn't undertake advertising until we got the money for BeLeave. What Mr. Massingham is saying is, “We've spent £300,000 of your money on your ads, and since you've asked me to transfer some back to you, would you like me to transfer that money?” That is what he was asking. He was not suggesting that he get £300,000 from Victoria for Darren or anything of that nature. Darren had asked if he could get money back—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Actually, he's not saying that. He said, “you're on track to spend 300K today.... ddi you need me to grab some money for you?” He's not saying they spent 300K; he said that we're going to spend 300K. Do you need me to get you some money?

[Jeff Silvester]

Correct.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of this, but it seems pretty clear that he's in a position to find out where the money is coming from, and Mr. Grimes says, “Don't worry, it's coming over from Vote Leave”. The only interpretation we can have is that you were helping to coordinate it—and to coordinate that would be illegal.

[Jeff Silvester]

Again, to that conversation, Mr. Massingham is not saying they're going to—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

We don't know what Mr. Massingham was saying, because he's not here, so you and I, I guess, are dealing with hypotheticals.

[Jeff Silvester]

No, I do know what he was saying.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Massingham refused to come, so we can't ask him what exactly he meant; we're just asking for your interpretation. This, to me, is a very concerning issue because, again, the question that we see is that we have group that was set up that had no history; that has a pro forma constitution within their Google drive; that gets their banking information from BeLeave; and that you were brought in by Mr. Gettleson, who, specifically, is now saying that he was helping to coordinate the two campaigns illegally; and that the key person who was involved in all of the decision-making, Mr. Massingham, is not here. We have no ability to get to the truth today, because you were not involved in that transfer of money; it was Mr. Massingham. Correct?

[Jeff Silvester]

Well, when it came to the money transfer, I was involved. I was here in Canada taking care of the business of our business. With respect, again, to that £300,000, Mr. Massingham was not offering to get additional money from Vote Leave; he was offering to provide back to BeLeave money they had already given us so that they could use it, not for advertising, but for other purposes of the campaign.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Nathaniel Erskine-Smith]

Thanks very much.

With that, we move to Ms. Fortier for seven minutes.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you for being here.

As requested, you provided this committee with documents, including contracts, invoices, and insertion documents. Do you agree?

[Jeff Silvester]

Correct.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Can you explain the difference between an insertion order and an invoice, and are they sent together?